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Old 25th April 2014, 00:03   #26201  |  Link
ryrynz
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Originally Posted by n3w813 View Post

HTPC Specs
Intel i3-2120T
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Nvidia drivers 335.23 WHQL
1920x1080@59p resolution output to TV

MadVR Global Settings
Image Downscaling: Catmull-Rom AR LL
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Dithering: ED1, colored noise, change every frame
SmoothMotion: Always
3DLUT: Enabled
All ‘trade quality for performance’ unchecked
If you're going to use SmoothMotion set to always then a higher refresh rate should be better (set to 60Hz)

Personally I found SmoothMotion when set to 'always' to significantly soften the image.
I still use it on it's basic setting 'only if' but my TVs motion interpolation does a far better job of keeping details whilst providing much of the same benefit as the 'always' setting.
SVP is also something you could look at if your TV doesn't offer this functionality. Soft pans are just ew.
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Old 25th April 2014, 00:18   #26202  |  Link
n3w813
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Originally Posted by ryrynz View Post
If you're going to use SmoothMotion set to always then a higher refresh rate should be better (set to 60Hz)

Personally I found SmoothMotion when set to 'always' to significantly soften the image.
I still use it on it's basic setting 'only if' but my TVs motion interpolation does a far better job of keeping details whilst providing much of the same benefit as the 'always' setting.
SVP is also something you could look at if your TV doesn't offer this functionality. Soft pans are just ew.
I set my output refresh rate to 59(.94) because it is an exact 2x of 29.97(30p) and 2.5x of 23.976(24p) content. IMO, using 59 provides smoother motion than at 60. MadVR OSD shows clock deviation of less than 0.0004% and 1 frame drop every 1.5 hours.

SVP actually interpolates the data between frames and may introduce artifacts. It produces the so-called soap opera effect like what most TV's built-in cinemotion filter does. Tried it before, hated it.
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Old 25th April 2014, 02:44   #26203  |  Link
hu1kamania
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So if I set Image Doubling to double Luma resolution "always - if upscaling is needed" what is the resolution threshold or perhaps "scaling factor" at which "upscaling is needed" for presenting content at 1080p?

Last edited by hu1kamania; 25th April 2014 at 03:04. Reason: to clarify my screen resolution is 1920x1080.
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Old 25th April 2014, 02:50   #26204  |  Link
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Anything bigger than 1080.
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Old 25th April 2014, 03:15   #26205  |  Link
hu1kamania
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Originally Posted by Asmodian View Post
Anything bigger than 1080.
I mean to say, when does MadVR determine scaling is needed? It won't double a 1080p clip, if I'm already at 1920x1080 because scaling is not needed, but it will double a 720p clip.

What about clips larger than 720p, but smaller than 1080p? Some get doubled, and some do not. How does MadVR determine this if set to "always - if scaling is needed"? What is the magic number?
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Old 25th April 2014, 04:08   #26206  |  Link
Asmodian
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madVR determines scaling is needed if scaling is needed. There is no magic number, if the video get resized up at all it is supposed to use NNEDI3 (1079 and below with a 1080p display). With samples where this doesn't happen is the horizontal resolution equal to or over 1920?

If you think NNEDI3 is not used sometimes when it should be please post a sample that demonstrates the problem.
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Old 25th April 2014, 04:08   #26207  |  Link
Stereodude
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
madVR should now be able to decimate 720p50/60 movies to 720p25/24. You need to manually activate deinterlacing for that and force film mode. Or add "deint=film" to the file name.
How do you manually activate deinterlacing without changing the file name on a progressive clip? I tried a 720p60 clip I know is 24FPS based with the "disable automatic source type detection" box checked and "force film mode" checked but nothing seemed to be happening.
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Old 25th April 2014, 04:16   #26208  |  Link
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Originally Posted by nevcairiel View Post
Yeah, MST is just messy, it randomly freaks out various applications as they think you run two screens.
No idea why the vendors ever thought that was a good idea.
Mainly so that the LCD can be made cheaply I think - if you use the tiled arrangement, you don't need a new, beefy controller for 4K, just two less complex ones. I don't know much about that area of hardware, but it is possible that at the beginning, there even weren't controllers that would handle a single 4K matrix (or maybe the latency would be too high?). And many LCDs were going to require two connections anyway (HDMI or DVI)...
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Old 25th April 2014, 04:34   #26209  |  Link
hu1kamania
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Originally Posted by Asmodian View Post
madVR determines scaling is needed if scaling is needed. There is no magic number, if the video get resized up at all it is supposed to use NNEDI3 (1079 and below with a 1080p display). With samples where this doesn't happen is the horizontal resolution equal to or over 1920?

If you think NNEDI3 is not used sometimes when it should be please post a sample that demonstrates the problem.
Thank you for clearing that up. I have an odd clip that runs at 1916x1076 so it gets doubled, and I was trying to figure out why it would be doubled, but a 1920x800 clip would not. Seems obvious now....
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Old 25th April 2014, 05:14   #26210  |  Link
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Hmm, maybe that's not a bad idea for a feature request, to have a switch that would tell madvr to avoid scaling factors very close to 1.0x (1916 -> 1920 etc...) and just pad with black bars instead.
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Old 25th April 2014, 05:34   #26211  |  Link
truexfan81
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Maybe your 59.94Hz setting is too slow (e.g. 59.90Hz instead of 59.94Hz), which would mean madVR has to constantly drop frames to keep audio and video in sync.
i just did a test, i set it back to 60hz all is fine, i set madvr to change it to 1080p59 it has the same problem. In previous madvr versions this used to work, not really sure when that was broken, but the reason for trying to use 1080p59 is to remove judder without the blur caused by smooth motion.
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Old 25th April 2014, 06:05   #26212  |  Link
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Originally Posted by madshi
I've only just implemented decimation and wanted to get your feedback on whether it's working correctly or not. I'm not actually sure whether madVR should be switching to a 23Hz display mode when decimating 60p content. More see below:

50p/60p decimation is a bit different to 50i/60i IVTC. With 50i/60i content, if you turn on madVR film mode, you will only get correct results if the content is actually a movie. Practically that means that madVR relies on your decision to turn on film mode. As a result it can safely switch to 23Hz, because the content must be film, otherwise playback would be full of combing artifacts. So there's no way 60Hz would be correct. So switching to 23Hz is a safe decision.

With 50p/60p decimation the situation is very different: If you force on film mode, madVR will still produce a "good" output even if the content isn't film. So basically you could turn on film mode for all 50p/60p content, even for sports and music concerts. madVR should detect that and should only throw away duplicate frames if the source is really a movie. This means that 50p/60p decimation is actually better than 50i/60i IVTC, in that it more or less already contains a film vs video detection. That, however, means that it suddenly isn't sure, anymore, which refresh rate is the right one to switch to. If the content is film, switching to 23Hz would make sense. But if it isn't film, switching to 60Hz would be more appropriate. In theory madVR could switch back and forth between 23Hz and 60Hz, depending on the current state of the film vs video detection. But this could result in display modes switching back and forth e.g. if there are TV station video mode overlays over film mode content, which would not be cool. Because of that currently I think madVR should probably stay at 60Hz, because thanks to Smooth Motion FRC 60Hz works ok for both film and video content, and for mixed content, too.
I'm not sure I understand your take here. The whole reason to use decimation on 720p59.94 videos is to play it back at it's original frame rate of 23.976. The same thing "the scene" does when encoding (also called "reverse pulldown"). For instance, Almost Human, 24, Family Guy, Cosmos, New Girl, or whatever else on Fox is filmed at 23.976 but broadcast on Fox at 59.94 because of 60hz U.S. broadcasting standards. If I can play these at 23.976 then I can play the file back without 3:2 pulldown judder. It also allows me to use NNEDI doubling otherwise my card can't handle it at 59.94 and I am left with an inferior picture.

I don't see why you would want to use IVTC on true 59/60 fps content like sports, that doesn't even make any sense. It's supposed to be played back at that frame rate because it was filmed that way.

Last edited by StinDaWg; 25th April 2014 at 06:25.
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Old 25th April 2014, 06:14   #26213  |  Link
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Here's a clip that glitches while seeking and from the start: http://www.mediafire.com/download/5f...int%3Dfilm.mpg it's reproducable most of the time, just jump around. If SM is off it doesn't happen at 60hz. At 48 and 50hz the glitches happen at 72 and 75 the glitches don't happen.

On the fly ivtc is kind of hard I guess. If you don't want to add a setting how about scanning a part of the video, in the middle, before determining what to do with ivtc, refresh rate, sm? I'd surely give up a few seconds of life to get these corrected.
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Old 25th April 2014, 07:23   #26214  |  Link
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This anime clip (One Piece #444) is 1440x1080i59, obviously 2:2 cadence. When I press Ctrl+Shift+Alt+T twice (or add the tag "deint=ivtc"), the desktop refresh rate changes to 23Hz, resulting in lots of dropped frames. (The list of display modes is "1080p60, 1080p59, 1080p50, 1080p30, 1080p29, 1080p25, 1080p24, 1080p23", all of them are supported in my display.) So I have to add both tags "deint=ivtc" and "refreshRate=29".

Of course leaving ivtc to the graphics driver is the easiest @59Hz (2:2 means no judder). But it seems that NNEDI3 breaks it (I turn it on for 1.2x or higher).

Last edited by renethx; 25th April 2014 at 07:53.
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Old 25th April 2014, 08:01   #26215  |  Link
hu1kamania
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Originally Posted by mandarinka View Post
Hmm, maybe that's not a bad idea for a feature request, to have a switch that would tell madvr to avoid scaling factors very close to 1.0x (1916 -> 1920 etc...) and just pad with black bars instead.
I had a similar thought, but it's not too difficult to avoid with profiles.
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Old 25th April 2014, 10:36   #26216  |  Link
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Originally Posted by StinDaWg View Post
I don't see why you would want to use IVTC on true 59/60 fps content like sports, that doesn't even make any sense. It's supposed to be played back at that frame rate because it was filmed that way.
720>p<60 with true 60 FPS is 2:2 MadVR IVTC detects this and is not decimating the stream the stream still placsback at 60 FPS. so nothing happen. this is not meant to be used on 1080i30 60 fields with no matching fields because this still needs Deinterlacing.

Quote:
This anime clip (One Piece #444) is 1440x1080i59, obviously 2:2 cadence. When I press Ctrl+Shift+Alt+T twice (or add the tag "deint=ivtc"), the desktop refresh rate changes to 23Hz, resulting in lots of dropped frames. (The list of display modes is "1080p60, 1080p59, 1080p50, 1080p30, 1080p29, 1080p25, 1080p24, 1080p23", all of them are supported in my display.) So I have to add both tags "deint=ivtc" and "refreshRate=29".

Of course leaving ivtc to the graphics driver is the easiest @59Hz (2:2 means no judder). But it seems that NNEDI3 breaks it (I turn it on for 1.2x or higher).
Display mode always switches to 23p with 1080i30 60 fields when Forced film mode is active. it is simply this way now.
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Old 25th April 2014, 10:41   #26217  |  Link
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Originally Posted by huhn View Post
720>p<60 with true 60 FPS is 2:2
True 60 fps content is 1:1, or more precisely, those things don't apply.

A Telecined PAL video would be 2:2, 50p which should be decimated to 25p.
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Old 25th April 2014, 10:55   #26218  |  Link
huhn
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Originally Posted by nevcairiel View Post
True 60 fps content is 1:1, or more precisely, those things don't apply.

A Telecined PAL video would be 2:2, 50p which should be decimated to 25p.
Of cause it is true that progressive files didn't have fields but in the end MadVR IVTC detects it this way. the MadVR cadence is about fields not frames at all. and if you think about this like an encoder/decoder a 1080i30 60 field hard telecine or true i30 is yet another 30p stream with interlacing flag for the encoder/decoder but this is about 50p/60.

it simply treate it as Interlaced and check it so a 720p60 is treated as 720i60 120 fields and if this is 2:2 it is not touched and output as 720p60.

720p50 is treated as 720i50 100 fields and if 4:4 is detected it is supposed to decimate it to 25 fps but this is currently not working only 6:4 in 720p60 is decimated to 720p24 at the moment.
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Old 25th April 2014, 11:11   #26219  |  Link
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it simply treate it as Interlaced and check it so a 720p60 is treated as 720i60 120 fields and if this is 2:2 it is not touched and output as 720p60.

720p50 is treated as 720i50 100 fields and if 4:4 is detected it is supposed to decimate it to 25 fps but this is currently not working only 6:4 in 720p60 is decimated to 720p24 at the moment.
Please stop mixing and matching terms. In my post above I was specifically referring to 720p59.94 6:4 videos that should switch to 23hz when film mode is turned on, because this is the way they were filmed and the correct frame rate to play them back at. It doesn't have anything to do with being interlaced. These are progressive files. There's no reason to ever turn on film mode or IVTC true 720p50 or 720p60 videos.

Last edited by StinDaWg; 25th April 2014 at 11:15.
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Old 25th April 2014, 11:34   #26220  |  Link
huhn
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Originally Posted by StinDaWg View Post
Please stop mixing and matching terms. In my post above I was specifically referring to 720p59.94 6:4 videos that should switch to 23hz when film mode is turned on, because this is the way they were filmed and the correct frame rate to play them back at. It doesn't have anything to do with being interlaced. These are progressive files. There's no reason to ever turn on film mode or IVTC true 720p50 or 720p60 videos.
read this:
http://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?p=1678622&postcount=26139

MadVr uses the IVTC cadence detection to see if a 720p60 stream is 24 not 60, the real difference is that all odd field should match the top field in the same frame. so there shouldn't be an uneven number in the cadence.

force film mode = MadVR IVTC

btw. i was talking to nevcairiel

this is what i said to you
Quote:
720>p<60 with true 60 FPS is 2:2 MadVR IVTC detects this and is not decimating the stream the stream still placsback at 60 FPS. so nothing happen. this is not meant to be used on 1080i30 60 fields with no matching fields because this still needs Deinterlacing.
not this

Quote:
it simply treate it as Interlaced and check it so a 720p60 is treated as 720i60 120 fields and if this is 2:2 it is not touched and output as 720p60.

720p50 is treated as 720i50 100 fields and if 4:4 is detected it is supposed to decimate it to 25 fps but this is currently not working only 6:4 in 720p60 is decimated to 720p24 at the moment.
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