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Old 14th May 2015, 20:27   #29961  |  Link
James Freeman
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I like Shiandow's debanding, it does an excellent job and it is very versatile with only 2 settings.
I love how the Threshold determines the strength and Detail can fine tune everything in between.

I find that both algorithms are doing what they're meant to do perfectly... so it is a tough choice.
A debanding filter is a "set it and forget it" for some people and some will want a more in depth control.
I think that Shiandow's debanding is great for both types of people, it can do exactly what the default debanding does with everything in between (and way more if you want) and only with 2 knobs to twist.

Some people like a setting above High (I read Ultra somewhere), and some will want lower than Low.
Personally I find the custom mode with the default debanding algo too complicated so I never used it, but with shiandow's algo a single Detail knob does just that.

Again, it's a though choice but I would go with the one that can be fine tuned easily, and comes out as a one size fits all.
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Last edited by James Freeman; 14th May 2015 at 20:34.
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Old 14th May 2015, 20:27   #29962  |  Link
MysteryX
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Wow, a lot of updates came out recently!

I'm trying the new version. DirectX 11 presentation path isn't working on my computer. The audio plays fine but there is no video (black). I had the same issue when testing Media Player.NET + DirectX 11

As for image doubling, it still isn't working on my computer. Applying NNEDI3 frame quadrupling doesn't affect rendering times. The option "use alternative interop hack" isn't helping either. However, NEDI doubling works.

I have a Radeon HD 7670M with Windows 7 x64.

Last edited by MysteryX; 24th June 2015 at 06:12.
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Old 14th May 2015, 20:31   #29963  |  Link
huhn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
madVR v0.88.7 released

http://madshi.net/madVR.zip

Code:
* fixed: D3D11 render queue didn't fill in Windows 7
* fixed: FineSharp didn't like "use 10bit image buffer instead of 16bit"
* fixed: "madVR_Load3dlutFile" ignored the attached "cal1" gamma ramps
* updated to latest Shiandow deband script
This might be the last update for a while, unless new critical bugs show up. If you find non-show-stopper-bugs, which are 100% reproducable and definitely madVR's fault and not a misconfiguration or a GPU driver bug, then please enter them into the madVR bug tracker. Thanks.

Still need more feedback about Shiandow's latest deband algorithm version. Thanks!

this version has broken D3D11 10 bit output.

i get now "always" tearing with 8 present queue and my other more stable tested present queue 2-3.
don't waste your time fixing this now. it's my problem using windows 10.
i just want you to know that windows 10 doesn't like your newest changes.

edit: ignore this for now nothing works right anymore sorry. i have to investigate way more why.

Last edited by huhn; 14th May 2015 at 20:35.
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Old 14th May 2015, 20:35   #29964  |  Link
aufkrawall
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Quote:
Originally Posted by huhn View Post
the problem is this option would clearly harm high quality source.
If it was just about rounding issues, why would madshi implement Shiandow's algorithm?

Btw: The latest two madVR versions are running absolutely issue-free for me.
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Old 14th May 2015, 20:49   #29965  |  Link
huhn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aufkrawall View Post
If it was just about rounding issues, why would madshi implement Shiandow's algorithm?
high does damage already. that's my point
Quote:
Btw: The latest two madVR versions are running absolutely issue-free for me.
can you please test d3d11 10 bit FSE? you are on AMD right?
would be nice to know if my system is just on a rampage.
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Old 14th May 2015, 21:02   #29966  |  Link
James Freeman
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FSE mode fails to engage. Black Screen in 8bit. "exclusive mode failed" message in 10bit.
Nvidia Windows 7 64

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Old 14th May 2015, 21:14   #29967  |  Link
leeperry
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Actually, no. The "octuple" option had nothing to do with that. You can't uncheck "double/quad chroma resolution" if you have NEDI selected because NEDI handles luma+chroma at the same time.
My bad, then what's confusing is that whenever luma NEDI is checked, ideally NEDI chroma should also be automatically ticked in order to make very clear that NEDI feeds RGB...but that you could still use NNEDI3 for luma(together with chroma if you so wish) if you don't run NEDI simultaneously.

I also wish I could enable 2X for >1.01 and 4X for 2.01, I kinda find 1.2 & 2.4 too high and pretty arbitrary.
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Old 14th May 2015, 21:22   #29968  |  Link
tobindac
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
"No dithering" is not a viable choice *at all*. Testing with 1bit is not a good test for this. Try 2bit. See here:

http://madshi.net/2bitNoDithering.png
http://madshi.net/2bitOrderedDithering.png

(CAUTION: Please zoom the images in the browser to 100%, otherwise the dither pattern will look ugly.)

I think no sane human could possibly prefer the image with no dithering there.
Hehe. I know the visual information is less without dithering in those examples. I meant the motion noise is more.

What if the tradeoff favors no noise at all given enough colors already available, for some users or cases?

Last edited by tobindac; 14th May 2015 at 21:29.
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Old 14th May 2015, 21:25   #29969  |  Link
Ver Greeneyes
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Working well in windowed mode, queues fill up now.

In the previous version, I had an odd issue with seeking backward where the video slowed to a crawl while the audio continued to play, badly desyncing them. The video eventually resumed playing at full speed, but still very delayed. But it's only happened once, and for all I know the queue fix also fixed that, so don't worry about it for now.
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Old 14th May 2015, 21:26   #29970  |  Link
huhn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leeperry View Post
My bad, then what's confusing is that whenever luma NEDI is checked, ideally NEDI chroma should also be automatically ticked in order to make very clear that NEDI feeds RGB...but that you could still use NNEDI3 for luma(together with chroma if you so wish) if you don't run NEDI simultaneously.
when i check NEDI luma NEDI chroma is checked too.
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Old 14th May 2015, 21:29   #29971  |  Link
Shiandow
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James Freeman View Post
I like Shiandow's debanding, it does an excellent job and it is very versatile with only 2 settings.
I love how the Threshold determines the strength and Detail can fine tune everything in between.

I find that both algorithms are doing what they're meant to do perfectly... so it is a tough choice.
A debanding filter is a "set it and forget it" for some people and some will want a more in depth control.
I think that Shiandow's debanding is great for both types of people, it can do exactly what the default debanding does with everything in between (and way more if you want) and only with 2 knobs to twist.

Some people like a setting above High (I read Ultra somewhere), and some will want lower than Low.
Personally I find the custom mode with the default debanding algo too complicated so I never used it, but with shiandow's algo a single Detail knob does just that.

Again, it's a though choice but I would go with the one that can be fine tuned easily, and comes out as a one size fits all.
Hmm, I think I discovered a better method, with only 1 (useful) parameter, which would control the balance between "detail" and debanding. I'm still testing it though, not sure how fast I can finish it.

Also, thanks to everyone for the feedback, it helps a lot to know where the algorithm can be improved.
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Old 14th May 2015, 21:35   #29972  |  Link
luk008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by huhn View Post
high does damage already. that's my point


can you please test d3d11 10 bit FSE? you are on AMD right?
would be nice to know if my system is just on a rampage.
Here it's working normally.
Windows 8.1 x64 + AMD R9 270

PS: I don't have a 10bit display. Doing the 10 bit test I can only see the difference between 8 and 10 using AMD dithering (registry), like in the older 0.88.xx releases. Don't know if this is your point, but nothing is crashing. I hope this helps.

Last edited by luk008; 14th May 2015 at 21:37.
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Old 14th May 2015, 22:05   #29973  |  Link
MysteryX
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Something is confusing.

SuperRes can be applied either in Upscaling Refinement or in Chroma Upscaling. What's the difference?

FineSharp and LumaSharpen can either be applied in Image Enhancements or Upscaling Refinement. What's the difference?

And because SuperRes includes anti-ringing, can I safely remove Anti-Ringing with Jinc if combined with SuperRes?

Last edited by MysteryX; 24th June 2015 at 06:12.
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Old 14th May 2015, 22:10   #29974  |  Link
MS-DOS
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FSE mode works fine here in both 8 and 10 bit modes. 2 hours of playback without a single drop\glitch, "present a frame for every Vsync" unchecked.
All queues are full in windowed mode, while present queue is at 6-7\8 in FSE.
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Old 14th May 2015, 22:16   #29975  |  Link
huhn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysteryX View Post
Something is confusing.

SuperRes can be applied either in Upscaling Refinement or in Chroma Upscaling. What's the difference?
the superres from Upscaling Refinement isn't used on chroma upsacaling.
don't forget chroma upscaling does only scale to RGB and nothing else

Quote:
FineSharp and LumaSharpen can either be applied in Image Enhancements or Upscaling Refinement. What's the difference?
the "Image Enhancements" is applied before scaling AFAIK.
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Old 14th May 2015, 22:29   #29976  |  Link
madshi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by omarank View Post
I still have the same opinion as before: images look better with madVR’s old debanding algorithms irrespective of the debanding strength. Instead of replacing the old “high” preset with Shiandow’s algorithm, I believe it would be better to modify the old “high” preset algorithm such that it is able to remove an equivalent amount of banding as Shiandow’s algo. However, I have no issues if you even replace the “high” preset as Shiandow’s debanding has really improved after he made those modifications.
Thanks for the feedback! Seems there'll be another Shiandow deband iteration coming. <sigh> Of course it's all good, the algorithm getting better all the time. But I hope you users/testers won't be bored at some point, retesting revised algos all the time?

Quote:
Originally Posted by omarank View Post
By the way, you haven’t added that trade quality option for disabling Error Diffusion dithering for 10 bit output?
It's on my list.

Quote:
Originally Posted by detmek View Post
Madshi, render queue gets filled with this new version on my Intel IGPU in full screen windowed mode. Now I only have a second or two frame out-of-order during switching Full Screen - Windowed mode and vice versa. Same with switching Windowed - FSE. It maybe better for me to stay with D3D9 for now.
If you see no advantage for D3D11 than there's no problem at all staying with D3D9. I think I didn't answer to your previous comment: If "use a separate device for presentation" causes the same problem with D3D9 then that points to a driver issue. I've had several of those with Intel already. Many of them have to do with sharing textures over multiple devices, sadly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zveroboy View Post
I tried both (D3D11 enabled & D3D11 disabled). Still not working.
For a moment, turned off desktop composition, and immediately turned back on.

0.88.7 - the same behavior.
Did you restart the media player after disabling D3D11? If so, did previous madVR versions not have this problem? If so, could you please check which exact madVR version introduced the problem for you? That would help me figuring out which change may have broken this for you. You can find the old madVR builds here:

http://www.videohelp.com/software/ma...sions#download

Quote:
Originally Posted by huhn View Post
ok it found the problem it only works with "refine the image after every ~x2 upscaling step".
"refine the image only once after upscaling" doesn't work.
Ah, I see. But that does make sense: If you refine the image only once after upscaling is complete, octupling won't bring any benefit over e.g. Jinc3 AR upscaling. Luma doubling brings a nice quality improvement. Quadrupling only a small improvement. Octupling will be invisible, unless you sharpen the image in between the doubling steps.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dogway View Post
Can't you image double in YUV space? Currently there are 2 extra color conversions (RGB->YCbCr->RGB).

This is worrying:

Luma and Chroma doubling should use the same kernel otherwise mismatches will arise specially on aliased borders.
Artifacts from different algorithms will be rather low, because the chroma channel is usually very soft. But if you're worried about this kind of problems, you can use both luma+chroma doubling, then this problem should be solved.

Multiple colorspace conversions are not "nice", but I'm using 16bit integer textures which have a LOT of precision, and I'm not cutting away BTB/WTW, either, so there's really not much to worry about. The colorspace conversions in madVR are not 100% lossless, but they should be nearly lossless.

Quote:
Originally Posted by James Freeman View Post
I like Shiandow's debanding, it does an excellent job and it is very versatile with only 2 settings.
I love how the Threshold determines the strength and Detail can fine tune everything in between.

I find that both algorithms are doing what they're meant to do perfectly... so it is a tough choice.
A debanding filter is a "set it and forget it" for some people and some will want a more in depth control.
I think that Shiandow's debanding is great for both types of people, it can do exactly what the default debanding does with everything in between (and way more if you want) and only with 2 knobs to twist.

Some people like a setting above High (I read Ultra somewhere), and some will want lower than Low.
Personally I find the custom mode with the default debanding algo too complicated so I never used it, but with shiandow's algo a single Detail knob does just that.

Again, it's a though choice but I would go with the one that can be fine tuned easily, and comes out as a one size fits all.
There will be no fine tuning (by users). After all is said and done, there will be low/med/high, just as it is now. No other controls. Regardless of which algorithm will be chosen. So "configurability" is not something I'm interested in hearing your feedback about. What I want to hear about is quality differences, maybe quality vs performance considerations, nothing else. Thanks!

(Maybe, in some far away time, there might be an advanced options page with more controls, but this is not something that is of any decision making interest to me right now. I only care about the algo which provides the best quality (and performance) right now. Everything else simply DOESN'T MATTER.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by MysteryX View Post
I'm trying the new version. DirectX 11 presentation path isn't working on my computer. The audio plays fine but there is no video (black). I had the same issue when testing Media Player.NET + DirectX 11

As for image doubling, it still isn't working on my computer. Applying NNEDI3 frame quadrupling doesn't affect rendering times. The option "use alternative interop hack" isn't helping either. However, NEDI doubling works.

I have a Radeon HD 7670M with Windows 7 x64.
Do you have the Windows 7 Platform Update installed? If yes, this sounds like a driver issue to me. Don't know what else it could be.

Quote:
Originally Posted by huhn View Post
can you please test d3d11 10 bit FSE? you are on AMD right?
would be nice to know if my system is just on a rampage.
Works fine on two different Windows 7 PCs with two different GPUs for me. And works also fine on my Windows 8.1 x64 dev PC. All in both 8bit and 10bit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by James Freeman View Post
FSE mode fails to engage. Black Screen in 8bit. "exclusive mode failed" message in 10bit.
Nvidia Windows 7 64
Works fine here. Is that a new problem for you? If so, could you please try to find out which exact madVR build introduced this problem for you?

Quote:
Originally Posted by leeperry View Post
My bad, then what's confusing is that whenever luma NEDI is checked, ideally NEDI chroma should also be automatically ticked
Exactly that should already happen, as huhn already reported.

Quote:
Originally Posted by leeperry View Post
I also wish I could enable 2X for >1.01 and 4X for 2.01, I kinda find 1.2 & 2.4 too high and pretty arbitrary.
Isn't "always - if upscaling is needed" exactly the same as 1.01/2.01? I'm confused.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MysteryX View Post
Something is confusing.

SuperRes can be applied either in Upscaling Refinement or in Chroma Upscaling. What's the difference?

FineSharp and LumaSharpen can either be applied in Image Enhancements or Upscaling Refinement. What's the difference?
I've explained this in detail in the first couple of pages following the initial v0.88.0 release.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MS-DOS View Post
FSE mode works fine here in both 8 and 10 bit modes. 2 hours of playback without a single drop\glitch, "present a frame for every Vsync" unchecked.
All queues are full in windowed mode, while present queue is at 6-7\8 in FSE.
That's what I want to hear...
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Old 14th May 2015, 22:29   #29977  |  Link
aufkrawall
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Quote:
Originally Posted by huhn View Post
can you please test d3d11 10 bit FSE? you are on AMD right?
would be nice to know if my system is just on a rampage.
I'm on NV (GTX 980, Win 10074, driver 350.12, x64).
Seems like 10 bit D3D11 FSE is working fine (tested in 10 bit mode with 8 and 10 bit video), but I have to enable frame for every sync to avoid massive presentation glitches. No tearing etc.
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Old 14th May 2015, 22:33   #29978  |  Link
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
How do you know it uses the BT.709 3dlut? If that is really the case, it's a bug and then please enter it to the madVR bug tracker.
Its difficult to explain, but I do know it for a fact. When I made Rec.709 3DLUT I had my TV's setting for Flesh Tone set to 0, but I accidentally left Flash Tone set to -15 when I created Rec.601 3DLUT. That creates an obvious difference when I switch between Rec.709 and Rec.601 3DLUT's using identical TV settings. Rec.709 line is used for SMPTE C content for sure, at least in 88.5.
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Old 14th May 2015, 22:37   #29979  |  Link
MysteryX
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Shouldn't "Upscaling Refinement" be within profile groups instead of being on its own for all profiles?

Last edited by MysteryX; 24th June 2015 at 06:12.
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Old 14th May 2015, 22:39   #29980  |  Link
aufkrawall
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Thanks for the feedback! Seems there'll be another Shiandow deband iteration coming. <sigh> Of course it's all good, the algorithm getting better all the time. But I hope you users/testers won't be bored at some point, retesting revised algos all the time?
It's not very time consuming, and if one wants better quality it's not really a sacrifice.

However, have we seen yet example images that show a real advantage for Shiandow's current implementation?
I for myself haven't found such an example yet. Higher threshould values with bad sources can be nice because of that deblocking effect, but it vanishes too much detail with good sources.
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