Welcome to Doom9's Forum, THE in-place to be for everyone interested in DVD conversion.

Before you start posting please read the forum rules. By posting to this forum you agree to abide by the rules.

 

Go Back   Doom9's Forum > Hardware & Software > Software players

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 25th June 2015, 15:10   #31321  |  Link
huhn
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 7,903
Quote:
Originally Posted by James Freeman View Post
WRONG, for the last time.

A typical video (mkv, Blu ray, DVD, you name it) is stored in limited range 16-235.
Selecting Full range in madVR WILL stretch it to 0-255 and will require dithering to prevent banding.

You can download the AVS709HD calibration patterns (all in video 16-236 range) and play the Grey Ramp video test pattern.
Now Disable dithering to see banding if madVR is set to Full range.
BUT, when you select Limited range in madVR and Disable dithering you will not see any difference at all with this pattern because madVR is not stretching the original range.

And just to clarify, the native (Standard) range of any TV is Limited.
Your TV box is outputting Limited range.
Nvidia through HDMI was Limited till the last driver.
Your typical Android box will send Limited through HDMI.
the range of a BD is luma 16/235 and chroma 16/240.

i leave the rest of the math to you but sorry you are wrong.
huhn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th June 2015, 15:32   #31322  |  Link
edigee
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 169
Quote:
Originally Posted by James Freeman View Post
Nvidia through HDMI was Limited till the last driver.
What???
Nvidia has full RGB via HDMI begining with 344.... drivers or maybe earlier.
In the last drivers they introduced only the 8bit/12bit display function.
edigee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th June 2015, 15:37   #31323  |  Link
huhn
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 7,903
Quote:
Originally Posted by edigee View Post
What???
Nvidia has full RGB via HDMI begining with 344.... drivers or maybe earlier.
In the last drivers they introduced only the 8bit/12bit display function.
and full range worked for PC monitors too without any registry hacks. and high bit deep output worked too it simply did it automatically.
aren't we through this countless times?
huhn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th June 2015, 16:33   #31324  |  Link
Sunset1982
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 280
I'm planing to upgrade my tv and htpc to 4k OLED and a GTX 980. I've got some questions:

- Who is running a 4K TV with GTX 980 and madvt? What settings regarding imagedoubling/chroma upscaling are possible with this card when upscaling 1080p mkv files to 4k?

- Is it possible to set up a custom resolution to run it in 23,976 mode to avoid repeated/skipped frames in a 3 hours movie?


I'm asking cause I'm coming from an ATI card wich could do 23,976 Hz good enough to avid skipped/repeated frames vor 6-7 hours
Sunset1982 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th June 2015, 16:35   #31325  |  Link
fairchild
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 321
on my 55" VT60 panasonic plasma I use:

LIMITED (RGB 16-235 @ GPU driver), FULL (RGB 0-255 @ MadVR), LIMITED (16-235 at TV) (nice colors all around but two quantization steps first on video driver -range conversion-, then in madvr)

For the many reasons that has been mentioned by James:
1. my HD cable box outputs in Limited and is not changeable
2. my blu-ray player outputs in Limited which is especially important when watching streaming content through Netflix and Amazon
3. my receiver/soundbar which has all 3 devices routed through it (HTPC, blu-ray player, HD cable box) and having all 3 using different settings is impossible
4. when watching content through the TV itself be it through the HD antenna for OTA broadcasts or internal apps, they all use Limited.
5. when watching content through the HTPC on the TV such as gaming or watching youtube or any other streaming sites, I also want to keep all video levels the same
__________________
MPC-HC/MPC-BE, Lav Filters, MadVR
CPU: AMD Ryzen 5 1600, Video: AMD Radeon RX Vega 56 -> TCL S405 55", Audio: Audio-Technica M50S
fairchild is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th June 2015, 18:47   #31326  |  Link
James Freeman
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 919
Quote:
Originally Posted by RyuzakiL View Post
I had a hunch that my TV can do FULL and LIMITED, but the catch is there's no setting where i can change my TV into limited.
so the question is can i still follow that recommended setup or should i settle for FULL,FULL,FULL config?
Most TV's are built around Limited range and their CMS and processing works best in limited range if not exclusively, like yours TV.
My Panasonic ST60 Plasma behaves best (no banding) only in Limited range when 4:4:4 is enabled.

I would recommend sending Limited Range to your TV.
GPU Limited, madVR Full, TV limited (Good all around but two [invisible] conversion stages).
Or GPU Full, madVR Limited, TV Limited (No stage conversions, best for Video but clipped PC range).

The question is whether your TV does 4:4:4 only in PC mode or in TV mode also (if at all)?
I would aim my priority for Smooth (no banding) 4:4:4 first, then on less range conversions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fairchild View Post
on my 55" VT60 panasonic plasma I use:

LIMITED (RGB 16-235 @ GPU driver), FULL (RGB 0-255 @ MadVR), LIMITED (16-235 at TV) (nice colors all around but two quantization steps first on video driver -range conversion-, then in madvr)

For the many reasons that has been mentioned by James:
1. my HD cable box outputs in Limited and is not changeable
2. my blu-ray player outputs in Limited which is especially important when watching streaming content through Netflix and Amazon
3. my receiver/soundbar which has all 3 devices routed through it (HTPC, blu-ray player, HD cable box) and having all 3 using different settings is impossible
4. when watching content through the TV itself be it through the HD antenna for OTA broadcasts or internal apps, they all use Limited.
5. when watching content through the HTPC on the TV such as gaming or watching youtube or any other streaming sites, I also want to keep all video levels the same
Exactly!

I'm not advocating for limited range when using TV, but in my experience limited range gives more accurate picture with my TV and without unnecessary conversion stages if GPU+madVR set accordingly.
The Panasonic ST/VT 50/60 only like limited range with 4:4:4 like you already noticed.

If a TV behaves well in full range like a PC monitor, then by all means, use GPU Full, madVR Full, TV Full.
__________________
System: i7 3770K, GTX660, Win7 64bit, Panasonic ST60, Dell U2410.

Last edited by James Freeman; 25th June 2015 at 19:17.
James Freeman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th June 2015, 19:48   #31327  |  Link
edigee
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 169
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunset1982 View Post
I'm planing to upgrade my tv and htpc to 4k OLED and a GTX 980. I've got some questions:

- Who is running a 4K TV with GTX 980 and madvt? What settings regarding imagedoubling/chroma upscaling are possible with this card when upscaling 1080p mkv files to 4k?

- Is it possible to set up a custom resolution to run it in 23,976 mode to avoid repeated/skipped frames in a 3 hours movie?


frames vor 6-7 hours
If you're not a hardcore gamer a GTX 960 or a new AMD serie R9 370 would be a far more better choice. The h265/HEVC full decoding capabilities of these two are something to look for. H265 would became mandatory for 4k because of the smaller file sizes and smaller bandwidth comparing to H264. GTX 980 has only limited decoding capabilities of h265.
The skipping frames are not something to bother for unless you have a very senzitive eye sight. For instance I use reclock with good results , of course with the 32 bit limitation. There is no reclock for x64(yet)

Last edited by edigee; 25th June 2015 at 19:52.
edigee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th June 2015, 19:58   #31328  |  Link
huhn
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 7,903
Quote:
Originally Posted by edigee View Post
If you're not a hardcore gamer a GTX 960 or a new AMD serie R9 370 would be a far more better choice. The h265/HEVC full decoding capabilities of these two are something to look for. H265 would became mandatory for 4k because of the smaller file sizes and smaller bandwidth comparing to H264. GTX 980 has only limited decoding capabilities of h265.
The skipping frames are not something to bother for unless you have a very senzitive eye sight. For instance I use reclock with good results , of course with the 32 bit limitation. There is no reclock for x64(yet)
sadly the r9 3xx doesn't have HDMI 2.0. at least all source i readed said this.
huhn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th June 2015, 21:11   #31329  |  Link
XMonarchY
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
So are you saying that Limited range is better for each TV out there? I totally agree that all BD's use Limited range, but I figured that if your TV supports 12bit + Full range + RGB then gradients would be even smoother due to having more than 0-255 levels. On my Samsung SPVA and 12bit setting + Full range + RGB has much better gradient smoothness than 8bit/12bit + Limited range OUTSIDE of madVR (on desktop that is).
  Reply With Quote
Old 25th June 2015, 21:11   #31330  |  Link
edigee
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 169
Quote:
Originally Posted by huhn View Post
sadly the r9 3xx doesn't have HDMI 2.0. at least all source i readed said this.
http://www.techpowerup.com/213575/am...0-support.html
This?
edigee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th June 2015, 21:24   #31331  |  Link
Sunset1982
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 280
Quote:
The skipping frames are not something to bother for unless you have a very senzitive eye sight.
I'm extremly sensitive to those visual imperfections.


Quote:
If you're not a hardcore gamer a GTX 960 or a new AMD serie R9 370 would be a far more better choice.
what about scaling 720p and 1080p files to 4k in madvr?? enough power for imagedoubling NEEDI32 and good chroma upscale?
Sunset1982 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th June 2015, 21:28   #31332  |  Link
huhn
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 7,903
Quote:
Originally Posted by edigee View Post
yes. but we should stay on topic now after the good old limited/full range stories.

finesharp is the current topic.
huhn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th June 2015, 02:18   #31333  |  Link
aufkrawall
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 1,812
I suppose the bug that the tap menu für Jinc disappears is known?
I can't select the number of taps anymore for image upscaling with Jinc, it's grayed out. Tried resetting settings, didn't help.
aufkrawall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th June 2015, 02:47   #31334  |  Link
huhn
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 7,903
Quote:
Originally Posted by aufkrawall View Post
I suppose the bug that the tap menu für Jinc disappears is known?
I can't select the number of taps anymore for image upscaling with Jinc, it's grayed out. Tried resetting settings, didn't help.
4 and 8 tabs are removed. they are bad scalers there is no need for them.
huhn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th June 2015, 02:49   #31335  |  Link
luk008
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by aufkrawall View Post
I suppose the bug that the tap menu für Jinc disappears is known?
I can't select the number of taps anymore for image upscaling with Jinc, it's grayed out. Tried resetting settings, didn't help.
It's not a bug, madshi has removed Jinc 4 from the options because there's any significative advantage over Jinc 3 since both sharpness and aliasing increase in the same proportions.
luk008 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th June 2015, 03:25   #31336  |  Link
RyuzakiL
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by James Freeman View Post
Most TV's are built around Limited range and their CMS and processing works best in limited range if not exclusively, like yours TV.
My Panasonic ST60 Plasma behaves best (no banding) only in Limited range when 4:4:4 is enabled.

I would recommend sending Limited Range to your TV.
GPU Limited, madVR Full, TV limited (Good all around but two [invisible] conversion stages).
Or GPU Full, madVR Limited, TV Limited (No stage conversions, best for Video but clipped PC range).

The question is whether your TV does 4:4:4 only in PC mode or in TV mode also (if at all)?
I would aim my priority for Smooth (no banding) 4:4:4 first, then on less range conversions.



Exactly!

I'm not advocating for limited range when using TV, but in my experience limited range gives more accurate picture with my TV and without unnecessary conversion stages if GPU+madVR set accordingly.
The Panasonic ST/VT 50/60 only like limited range with 4:4:4 like you already noticed.

If a TV behaves well in full range like a PC monitor, then by all means, use GPU Full, madVR Full, TV Full.
arrggh...stuck between two configs

I now understand that my Samsung 40inch LedTV can do both FULL and LIMITED by way of toggling "HDMI Black Level" to NORMAL (0-255) and LOW (16-235) and also my panel can do FULL and LIMITED range RGB 4:4:4

so now the question is what are the advantages of using FULL, FULL, FULL config compared to FULL, LIMITED, LIMITED config?

it seems my panel is a very flexible one and can do either both config, so i'm confused what config to use.

P.S. just want to put a nail on this topic and move on.
RyuzakiL is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th June 2015, 06:59   #31337  |  Link
RainyDog
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 184
Quote:
Originally Posted by RyuzakiL View Post
arrggh...stuck between two configs

I now understand that my Samsung 40inch LedTV can do both FULL and LIMITED by way of toggling "HDMI Black Level" to NORMAL (0-255) and LOW (16-235) and also my panel can do FULL and LIMITED range RGB 4:4:4

so now the question is what are the advantages of using FULL, FULL, FULL config compared to FULL, LIMITED, LIMITED config?

it seems my panel is a very flexible one and can do either both config, so i'm confused what config to use.

P.S. just want to put a nail on this topic and move on.
If you've confirmed that your panel can definitely do Full RGB 4:4:4 then use that.

What James says about his plasma doesn't apply to your LCD. Many LCD telly's are perfectly capable of replicating a PC monitor and will do full RGB 4:4:4 fine.

I calibrated my Sony telly running AVS patterns in madVR outputting full RGB 4:4:4 using an EyeOne Pro with Colour HCFR and the results were nigh on reference.
RainyDog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th June 2015, 07:09   #31338  |  Link
RyuzakiL
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 36
Ok thanks, then my next mission is too calibrate this panel but it seems i'll be needing some high-end expensive equipment just for that. hm.. I think I'll just have to settle with default settings of my Samsung Telly (Default Movie Profile)
RyuzakiL is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th June 2015, 08:31   #31339  |  Link
James Freeman
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 919
To test your TV for 4:4:4 and Banding,

Banding Test: Smooth Grey Gradient
Banding Test 2Smooth Color Gradient
4:4:4 Test: Chroma 4:4:4 Image

You should see 4:4:4 and no banding at all.
If your TV/Projector/Monitor can display 4:4:4 Full range without banding, it would be ideal because madVR's dithering is top quality.
__________________
System: i7 3770K, GTX660, Win7 64bit, Panasonic ST60, Dell U2410.

Last edited by James Freeman; 26th June 2015 at 09:41.
James Freeman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th June 2015, 11:14   #31340  |  Link
lanzorg
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by huhn View Post
Finesharp is the current topic.
FineSharp is really too bad, madvr needs implementation of LimitedSharpenFasterMC and UnsharpHQ from the avisynth world.

Avisynth script chain:

Code:
SetMTMode(3,0)
ffdshow_source()
SetMTmode(2,0)
LimitedSharpenFasterMC(1)
UnsharpHQ(THRESHOLD=80,SHARPSTR=0.1,SMOOTH=0.2)
GradFun2db()
SetMTMode(1)
GetMTMode(false) > 0 ? distributor() : last
LimitedSharpenFasterMC avisynth function:

Code:
function LimitedSharpenFasterMC(clip clp,int "strength")
{
ox=clp.width
oy=clp.height
ss_x=1.5
ss_y=1.5
wide=true
softdec=-1
soft=softdec!=-1 ? softdec : sqrt((((ss_x+ss_y)/2.0-1.0)*100.0))*10
soft=soft>100 ? 100 : soft 
ssx=round(float(ox*ss_x/8)*8)
ssy=round(float(oy*ss_y/8)*8)
clp.isYV12() ? clp : clp.converttoyv12()
ss_x !=1.0 || ss_y !=1.0 ? last.spline144resize(ssx,ssy):last
tmp=last
dark_limit1=tmp.mt_inpand()
bright_limit1=tmp.mt_expand()
dark_limit=(wide==false) ? dark_limit1 : dark_limit1.removegrain(20,-1).mt_inpand()
bright_limit=(wide==false) ? bright_limit1 : bright_limit1.removegrain(20,-1).mt_expand()
minmaxavg=mt_average(dark_limit1,bright_limit1)
Str=string(float(strength)/100.0)
normsharp=mt_lutxy(tmp,tmp.removegrain(11,-1),"x y == x x x y - abs 16 / 1 2 / ^ 16 * "+Str+
\ " * x y - 2 ^  x y - 2 ^ "+Str+" 100 * 25 / + / * x y - x y - abs / * + ?")
last=mt_clamp(normsharp,bright_limit,dark_limit,1,1)
clp.isYV12() ? tmp.mergeluma(last) : tmp.mergeluma(last.converttoyuy2())
return last
}
lanzorg is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
direct compute, dithering, error diffusion, madvr, ngu, nnedi3, quality, renderer, scaling, uhd upscaling, upsampling

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 12:44.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.