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Old 8th July 2015, 14:09   #31581  |  Link
madshi
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Thanks.

The difference between each neighbor "algo" option is relatively small. But if you switch from e.g. 0 to 3 and back, there should be a visible difference - at least when using a very sharp source and a scaling factor of at least 2.0x. The higher the scaling factor and the sharper the source, the bigger the difference will be between the "algo" and the "use alternative color space" options.
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Old 8th July 2015, 14:33   #31582  |  Link
aufkrawall
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I really like the new alternative color space option.
It gives an anti aliasing effect, but doesn't seem to introduce AA artifacts. However, strength should be highered in return to make contoures not look too thin.
I prefer algo 3: 1 changes brightness for some colors too much and 2 is too soft.
I still don't see a real gain in more passes than 1.
So my new favorite settings for SuperRes are:
passes 1, strength 0.7, algo 3, alternative color space used.
At least it looks great with the low res cartoon example.

Edit: madshi, would it be possible to use lower values than 0.1 with AdaptiveSharpen with the next version?

Last edited by aufkrawall; 8th July 2015 at 14:43.
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Old 8th July 2015, 15:26   #31583  |  Link
tFWo
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My experience with new SR: I turned it off as i struggle to find the purpose and actual refinement in this image refinement.

720p movie i tried actually looked softer and fuzzier with any of the SR algos. Alt. color space made it even worse. Turning SR (with alt color space on) off was like removing a thin layer of dirt

On SD movie (the one i used for those images in my last post) i can see the difference clearly between different algos when zoomed. 0 is sharpest, 2 is softest. 3 is different (sharper than 2). Combination of algo 2 + alt color space is nightmare fuel - Rings of Saturn .

Turning SR on with low number of passes with strength 1.00 doesn't do much but more importantly doesn't do anything positive to the picture. Increasing number of passes just brings more artifacts with negligible increase in sharpness.

What is the purpose of this new SR?
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Old 8th July 2015, 16:07   #31584  |  Link
SecurityBunny
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Your log says that copying the frames to the backbuffer takes ages (about 15ms per frame). Which seems to be a GPU driver or D3D11 issue. Probably nothing I can do about it, unfortunately...
Oh well. Thanks for looking into it at least. I'll just stick with D3D9 10-bit since it can switch window modes problem free.
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Old 8th July 2015, 16:08   #31585  |  Link
aufkrawall
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I can understand that the softness doesn't look good always, and with NNEDI3 it's also an option to just enable AdaptiveSharpen to get a different, but very nice and sharp result.
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Old 8th July 2015, 16:25   #31586  |  Link
Ver Greeneyes
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Originally Posted by SithUK View Post
Even if I set the option to none, would it transfer the madvr 3d lut related processing off my gpu?
No, but it would at least do the decoding on the CPU, giving madVR more to work with. My laptop GPU is pretty similar to yours - a Mobility Radeon HD 4650 - and it can handle up to 720p with a 3DLUT just fine. 1080p is too much for it however (at least when downscaling to the laptop monitor - but it struggles to remain smooth on a 1080p external monitor as well). I have it set to do the decoding on my CPU ("None").

Last edited by Ver Greeneyes; 8th July 2015 at 16:34.
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Old 8th July 2015, 16:58   #31587  |  Link
Halfpant.exe
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Liking the new SR changes
I watch a lot of low quality 480p videos
& passes 2, strength. 75 with algo 3 & alternative color space turned on is giving a fairly nice results
& for hd content i am using
algo 0 with alternative color space turned off & adaptive sharpen to 1.5

Sent from my MotoE2(4G-LTE) using Tapatalk
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Old 8th July 2015, 18:53   #31588  |  Link
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Your log says that copying the frames to the backbuffer takes ages (about 15ms per frame). Which seems to be a GPU driver or D3D11 issue. Probably nothing I can do about it, unfortunately...


Attaching stuff to this forum is not a good idea. It usually takes ages for the attachments to get approved.

In any case, what does the debug OSD (Ctrl+J) say about the movie framerate? And is deinterlacing on or off for the problematic file? My best guess is that it's a 60i file, which madVR has to deinterlace to 60p. Which consumes twice as much processing power as a 24p file does.


This is a GPU driver issue. I don't know in which driver versions this occurs and in which not.
I edited my post with images, i think the file is 23p, but i think the resolution is a bit weird, but don't know. the osd is in the images.
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Old 8th July 2015, 19:28   #31589  |  Link
Anima123
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Originally Posted by leandronb View Post
I edited my post with images, i think the file is 23p, but i think the resolution is a bit weird, but don't know. the osd is in the images.
In your case, since the scale factor is too small, there's no need to activate image doubling. You really should not choose 'always use doubling' option.
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Old 8th July 2015, 19:54   #31590  |  Link
leeperry
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Hah, it's true that being a mVR tester is a full-time job as I just left for a week, missed two subversions and one of my fav settings(SR softness) is already gone

Sounds like one more week and NEDI was out too

Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
So I can remove super-xbr-25 again?
25 is useless as far as I can tell, I'd love to try 37 if any possible please.

I don't mean to sound ironic, pedantic or negative or anything like that so please do not take what I'm gonna ask in any bad way, mVR is an amazing VR and I'm more than thankful for the time and prime rate expertise you invest in it but: Is there any way to run xsbr and SR on my own via a PS script in my media player please?

I realize that you are the game creator and that you make the rules but post-processing settings are highly subjective, many apps come with a "simple/advanced settings" checkbox that has the former enabled by default. Could you for instance imagine Ahead Nero with 5 suboptions? Both newbies and experts want to be able to use it but they have different needs, one part of them likes as many options as possible and the other not. If at some point the latter wanna learn more about what's happening in the back, they can always go expert, learn and finetune it all optimally. Sometimes you don't know you need something till you try it.

At this point, you wanna dumb down mVR as much as possible in order not to scare new users away and all testers have to constantly complain, whine and try to prove their point that their favorite setting should stay(if it's not gone already)

Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
currently HQ enabled seems to be better in several cases, although maybe worse in some others. But current tendency goes in favor of HQ enabled.

If you have examples of where HQ looks worse, please show screenshots.
TBH I couldn't care less whether other users would prefer having HQ on or off, it's a free world and we all have different rigs, different tastes and different eyes. Since when is a "tendency" supposed to decide what looks best to me?

Especially during summer when most of the EU and US will be away on vacation for at least a few weeks. They were not here, they cannot complain....."Ibiza or mVR, gotta make choices in life dude "

If I understood correctly, SR constantly compares and tries to find the best upscaled frame so they really only make sense in motion IMHO. Having HQ on or off might not make a difference on a single screenshot out of its context for all I know, I can always try to post screenshots that would prove my (subjective?) point but I'm talking about differences on motion pictures(as I do not watch slideshows of tiny pixel art and nasty test patterns).

Maybe HQ enabled would look better to me on a plasma, 4K, TN or something....what matters to me is that on my 1080p Sammy LED LCD TV with .13 via DVI(pure untouched 4:4:4 RGB TMDS) I definitely far prefered having HQ off, the same way I really hate the obvious EE created by NNEDI3 and sxbr on 720p@1080p. I like them a lot on tiny videos because NEDI isn't quite extracting as much edges information as them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Please post screenshots that show where/why you like NEDI better than super-xbr.
If this sample doesn't prove my point to your eyes then nothing will, really: http://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?...ostcount=30138
Quote:
Here's an extreme scenario 40" 720p sample from this movie, I do own the original BD so I could compare them but with NNEDI3@CR AR LL with the NNEDI3 SR defaults@ED2-8bit, EE is seriously too strong to my eyes as if all background elements in the room were right on the front, it literally kills perspective when OTOH NEDI with the SR non-double defaults looks fantastic to me
NEDI is a like a sharper J3AR to me, the other two come with very strong EE as clearly visibly to me on this sample. I do prefer sxbr over NNEDI3 because it's far less GPU intensive, looks equally über-sharp and works stunningly well on tiny videos. Different needs, different solutions and I'm not stuck with the 13.12 drivers anymore

Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Sorry to say, but the default settings are sharpness 1.0 and softness 0.0. Probably you still had the old defaults from the old SuperRes algo stored.
I did update from the previous build and my settings were nothing like this, sharpness was 28 IIRC.

Anyway, 1.0 sharpness was way too sharp to me in .13 and if SR is bound to become a silly "SR" checkbox with zero subsetting then it sounds like I would be stuck with .13 forever or would have to run SR on my own in my media player(which is totally fine as I like to set all settings to my own personal subjective taste, I'm crazee like that sometimes).

Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Not sure who you're agreeing with here, maybe yourself? But sorry, no knob planned for now.
Very nice, now you're calling me a nutcase agreeing with himself

My post was right under this one and if you look closely I did put a "^" character at the beginning in order to avoid a useless quote and hopefully making clear that I was referring to it:
Quote:
Originally Posted by JarrettH View Post
To me, xbr100 is looking a little too sharp. I tested NEDI+SR (defaults) vs xbr75 doubling alone and they looked pretty much alike except xbr alone will run much faster
It does sound like he'd try 87 should he be able to, the same way I'd love to try 37.

Which raises the same question: would you be so kind as to please explain us how to run sxbr and SR in our media player so we could go bonkers and try any value we like? No more whining afterwards I promise, you'll save time reading it and me writing it

Or maybe you could please call those PS scripts from an external text file and allow those would like to get their hands dirty to specify their own favorite settings?


Last edited by leeperry; 8th July 2015 at 21:37.
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Old 8th July 2015, 20:25   #31591  |  Link
Nevilne
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That's kinda rude. Look into MPDN.
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Old 8th July 2015, 20:37   #31592  |  Link
leeperry
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^ Already thought about it but I like PotPlayer too much, seamless playback of up to 1000 movies being its strong point.

FWIU these scripts are available as PS scripts so what I would like to do should be totally doable and madshi wrote mVR so he can chose any default setting he likes. I fully respect that and again didn't mean to sound rude in any way, mVR is very obviously light years ahead of all other DS video renderers and we're all extremely thankful for it. I've been testing it since day 1 and it's been a hell of a ride PQ-wise

Last edited by leeperry; 8th July 2015 at 20:48.
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Old 8th July 2015, 21:28   #31593  |  Link
Warner306
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SithUK View Post
I've had a look and the Ati 540v that I have is basically a mobility hd 4550. Userbenchmark.com has it as comparable to an Intel hd2000.

Should I try selecting all the tick boxes in the trade performance for quality section? The default install has the first half of the options selected already.

The default chroma, up scaling, and down scaling options are already as suggested above. (Bicubic and lanczos)

I tried adjusting the 3d lut bit rate option on the trade performance for quality page to the lowest value of 6. I still had stuttering playback.

Is there anyway to divert the load from the gpu to the cpu?my processor is showing max 6%, and that is likely for only one of the 4 cores.

Is my hope of using a 3d lut with this laptop realistic? (Cpu is i5 m450 @ 2.4Ghz, 4Gb ram, Ati 540v gfx)
DXVA image upscaling could be the way to go for a graphics card that slow. Is is possible to use a 3D LUT with DXVA chroma and image enabled?
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Old 8th July 2015, 21:48   #31594  |  Link
SithUK
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Originally Posted by Warner306 View Post
DXVA image upscaling could be the way to go for a graphics card that slow. Is is possible to use a 3D LUT with DXVA chroma and image enabled?
I mostly watch 1080p content at 1080p resolution. Madvr operates using near neighbour by default I think when there is no scaling required. What other options could I try to improve performance with a 3d lut? There are no performance issues when I run without a 3d lut, but the main attraction to me is the calibrated rec709 gamut.
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Old 8th July 2015, 22:37   #31595  |  Link
Eyldebrandt
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tFWo View Post
My experience with new SR: I turned it off as i struggle to find the purpose and actual refinement in this image refinement.

720p movie i tried actually looked softer and fuzzier with any of the SR algos. Alt. color space made it even worse. Turning SR (with alt color space on) off was like removing a thin layer of dirt

On SD movie (the one i used for those images in my last post) i can see the difference clearly between different algos when zoomed. 0 is sharpest, 2 is softest. 3 is different (sharper than 2). Combination of algo 2 + alt color space is nightmare fuel - Rings of Saturn .

Turning SR on with low number of passes with strength 1.00 doesn't do much but more importantly doesn't do anything positive to the picture. Increasing number of passes just brings more artifacts with negligible increase in sharpness.

What is the purpose of this new SR?
+1.
This is more or less my exact thought.
On HQ content, with high resolution screens, NNEDI3 doubling + AS gives better results compared anything with SuperRes inside the plot.
Few passes = does nothing worth turning it on
high passes = does everything you definitely don't want.
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Old 8th July 2015, 22:43   #31596  |  Link
Ver Greeneyes
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SithUK View Post
I mostly watch 1080p content at 1080p resolution. Madvr operates using near neighbour by default I think when there is no scaling required. What other options could I try to improve performance with a 3d lut? There are no performance issues when I run without a 3d lut, but the main attraction to me is the calibrated rec709 gamut.
Did you try CPU decoding? I think that will probably help a lot, assuming your CPU can handle it.
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Old 8th July 2015, 22:53   #31597  |  Link
madshi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aufkrawall View Post
I really like the new alternative color space option.
It gives an anti aliasing effect, but doesn't seem to introduce AA artifacts. However, strength should be highered in return to make contoures not look too thin.
I prefer algo 3: 1 changes brightness for some colors too much and 2 is too soft.
I still don't see a real gain in more passes than 1.
So my new favorite settings for SuperRes are:
passes 1, strength 0.7, algo 3, alternative color space used.
At least it looks great with the low res cartoon example.
Could you please try some other content, too? Preferable also some sharp and some soft real life video instead of Anime, maybe also with ringing and without ringing. These new SuperRes options may look different with different kinds of material. Of course I need to find values which work best as an allround solution.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aufkrawall View Post
Edit: madshi, would it be possible to use lower values than 0.1 with AdaptiveSharpen with the next version?
Ok, no big problem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tFWo View Post
My experience with new SR: I turned it off as i struggle to find the purpose and actual refinement in this image refinement.

720p movie i tried actually looked softer and fuzzier with any of the SR algos. Alt. color space made it even worse. Turning SR (with alt color space on) off was like removing a thin layer of dirt

On SD movie (the one i used for those images in my last post) i can see the difference clearly between different algos when zoomed. 0 is sharpest, 2 is softest. 3 is different (sharper than 2). Combination of algo 2 + alt color space is nightmare fuel - Rings of Saturn .

Turning SR on with low number of passes with strength 1.00 doesn't do much but more importantly doesn't do anything positive to the picture. Increasing number of passes just brings more artifacts with negligible increase in sharpness.

What is the purpose of this new SR?
Rings of Saturn, hehe...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Halfpant.exe View Post
Liking the new SR changes
I watch a lot of low quality 480p videos
& passes 2, strength. 75 with algo 3 & alternative color space turned on is giving a fairly nice results
& for hd content i am using
algo 0 with alternative color space turned off & adaptive sharpen to 1.5
If you had to choose one setting for all sources, which would it be?

Quote:
Originally Posted by leandronb View Post
I edited my post with images, i think the file is 23p, but i think the resolution is a bit weird, but don't know. the osd is in the images.
Yes, the resolution is at fault. Scaling near 1080p to 1080p has quite high demands. As Anima123 already mentioned, in that situation it doesn't really make much sense to force image doubling. Basically you're doubling near 1080p to near 4K and then scale it back down to 1080p.

Quote:
Originally Posted by leeperry View Post
Is there any way to run xsbr and SR on my own via a PS script in my media player please?
Not with madVR, no. madVR does currently not support custom shaders which change video resolutions. This is planned for a future version, but it will take some time to get there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by leeperry View Post
I realize that you are the game creator and that you make the rules but post-processing settings are highly subjective, many apps come with a "simple/advanced settings" checkbox that has the former enabled by default. Could you for instance imagine Ahead Nero with 5 suboptions? Both newbies and experts want to be able to use it but they have different needs, one part of them likes as many options as possible and the other not. If at some point the latter wanna learn more about what's happening in the back, they can always go expert, learn and finetune it all optimally. Sometimes you don't know you need something till you try it.

At this point, you wanna dumb down mVR as much as possible in order not to scare new users away and all testers have to constantly complain, whine and try to prove their point that their favorite setting should stay(if it's not gone already)
I consider myself an expert, too, but I still want to get rid of as many options as possible. Even most experts do not want to adjust settings to different values for each movie. I know that some madVR users would prefer me to keep all options, but sorry, not going to happen. I do try to remove only options which I consider not useful enough to be worth the effort. And I know that some users may disagree about some of those decisions. But I make my decisions after listening to your feedback, and of course I have my own opinion, too, and I try to fuse them to get to the best possible end result. Anyway, you'll have to live with whatever decisions I make, sorry.

Quote:
Originally Posted by leeperry View Post
TBH I couldn't care less whether other users would prefer having HQ on or off, it's a free world and we all have different rigs, different tastes and different eyes. Since when is a "tendency" supposed to decide what looks best to me?
What looks best to you isn't always fixed, though. One day you love a noisy picture and ask for ways to add even more grain. The next day you want to get rid of as much noise as possible. And when testing the dithering algos, you changed your mind a few times, too. Just saying this so that you can understand better that I can't make decisions based on the feedback of one single user. Which options look good or bad can be a matter of taste, sometimes, but sometimes it also simply depends on with which content you tested. Some options look better with some content but worse with other content. I need to find options which look better for the majority of content and the majority of users. And that's what I'm trying to do. Furthermore, HQ downscaling is actually the scientifically and technically more correct solution. Actually, the non-HQ-downscaling implementation was broken. It did not work as it was originally intended. Still, you liked it better, which is your right. But several other users had a different opinion, *I* had a different opinion, and then add to that the scientific background and the fact that the non-HQ option was actually doing stuff wrong. All this combined led me to the decision to use HQ downscaling.

Quote:
Originally Posted by leeperry View Post
If I understood correctly, SR constantly compares and tries to find the best upscaled frame so they really only make sense in motion IMHO.
No. What you're describing is one method/implementation of SuperRes. But that's totally different to what Shiandow is doing. Shiandow's SuperRes strictly looks at each frame separately.

Quote:
Originally Posted by leeperry View Post
If this sample doesn't prove my point to your eyes then nothing will, really: http://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?...ostcount=30138
This is a custom reencoded Anime sample with ringing artifacts in the source. I've not compared this sample with HQ downscaling on/off. But in any case, do you really want to base your decisions on an Anime reencoding which has EE artifacts in the source already? Of course testing such sources is useful, too, but only as one of many tests.

Quote:
Originally Posted by leeperry View Post
Anyway, 1.0 sharpness was way too sharp to me in .13 and if SR is bound to become a silly "SR" checkbox with zero subsetting then it sounds like I would be stuck with .13 forever or would have to run SR on my own in my media player(which is totally fine as I like to set all settings to my own personal subjective taste, I'm crazee like that sometimes).
There are new options to play with in build v0.88.16. Let me know what you think. I do value your feedback, but your feedback doesn't "overwrite" the feedback of other users.

Quote:
Originally Posted by leeperry View Post
Very nice, now you're calling me a nutcase agreeing with himself

My post was right under this one and if you look closely I did put a "^" character at the beginning in order to avoid a useless quote and hopefully making clear that I was referring to it:

It does sound like he'd try 87 should he be able to, the same way I'd love to try 37.
Neither he nor anyone else in the proximity of your original comment made a wish at all about a super-xbr sharpness knob. So there was nobody you could agree with there, except yourself...

Quote:
Originally Posted by SithUK View Post
I mostly watch 1080p content at 1080p resolution. Madvr operates using near neighbour by default I think when there is no scaling required. What other options could I try to improve performance with a 3d lut? There are no performance issues when I run without a 3d lut, but the main attraction to me is the calibrated rec709 gamut.
Try setting chroma upscaling to Bilinear.
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Old 8th July 2015, 22:54   #31598  |  Link
madshi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eyldebrandt View Post
+1.
This is more or less my exact thought.
On HQ content, with high resolution screens, NNEDI3 doubling + AS gives better results compared anything with SuperRes inside the plot.
Few passes = does nothing worth turning it on
high passes = does everything you definitely don't want.
Regardless of settings?

Did you have a different opinion about the old SuperRes algorithm?
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Old 8th July 2015, 23:04   #31599  |  Link
reverepink
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Recommend me some settings for video playback, please.

My setup is:

Win 8.1
PotPlayet x64
MadVR and LAV Video Decoder
Dell U3011 2560*1600 Monitor
NVIDIA GTX 650Ti

I mostly try to watch HD remuxes and some anime webrips.
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Old 8th July 2015, 23:10   #31600  |  Link
dbcooper
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Any performance improvements with AMD Catalyst 15.7 drivers?
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