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Old 25th September 2018, 21:12   #52741  |  Link
famasfilms
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Originally Posted by mclingo View Post
not sure whats going on with yours to be honest but mines currently working ok after a full reinstall of MADVR, AMD drivers and KODI DS.

There was no way I was going to change my HDMI mode every time I wanted to play a HDR movie though mate, I would have still gone with the calibration in MADVR.

Update your SIG with your details.

give us some idea of your full setup and processing chain and lets see if we can get to the bottom of it.

Sound to me like you dont have something setup right somewhere, if colours are washed out, HDR has always worked fine in all modes for me.
Eh? Nothing needs fixing with my setup, SDR and HDR work fine, the only requirement is that I change from PC mode to Home Theatre on the TV to watch HDR.

The only reason it's on PC mode to begin with is because that's how the calibrator set it up, starting playback and MadVR display mode switching turns the TV into Home Theatre mode and onto the calibrated settings

Now that I think about it I could just leave it in home theatre mode all the time

For reference, the earlier reply to my post in March about colour differences for HDR in PC vs HT is here: https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.p...56#post1837356

"On 2016 LG Oleds (not sure about 2017) HDR is messed up when using PC HDMI input icon. Not sure what the TV is doing with HDR in pc-mode but it looks as if it was using a wrong color gamut or something like that.

I haven't watched mad max in HDR yet, so I don't know how colorful it is but other movies will look desaturated and dull when using pc-mode HDR. "

"Home Theater seems to have much better coverage on my TV. It is still mostly 4:4:4 but 4:2:2 shows up more than it does when set to PC, so there is extra processing that has some color blending. Good for video but not great for a monitor or precise chroma upscaling."

"Make sure you enable Deep Color on that HDMI input, because my E6 does UHD at 23.976 / 24 on the PC label. However, PC label absolutely ruins HDR on the LG E6, locks settings, and makes it look washed out. You also cannot get 4:4:4 without using the "PC" label. So if you are using the display as both a desktop monitor and an HTPC, gotta switch between PC mode and non-PC mode depending on HDR. It sucks, shame on LG for never fixing it. "

So I guess you could leave it on Home Theatre if all you do is watch video's, but my PC is not just a HTPC

Last edited by famasfilms; 25th September 2018 at 21:17.
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Old 25th September 2018, 22:27   #52742  |  Link
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On 2016 LG Oleds (not sure about 2017) HDR is messed up when using PC HDMI input icon. Not sure what the TV is doing with HDR in pc-mode but it looks as if it was using a wrong color gamut or something like that.
They actually fixed the messed up HDR/color gamut when using pc-mode on 2018 LG Oleds with the latest firmware update.
Maybe 2016 and 2017 models will follow....

Only took them 2.5 years.

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I've actually already thought about that! It's hard to develop such an algo, though, without being able to test it with an OLED. And I don't have an OLED atm.
Yeah I can see that this would be nearly impossible without having an Oled to test with, as it would probably require a lot of trial and error.

Someone buy madshi an Oled.
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Old 25th September 2018, 22:30   #52743  |  Link
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Well, I think many users are actually trying to get their HDR content just as bright as their SDR content. Which is why people are using very very low target nits settings like 100nits in madVR.

Personally, I don't think that's the purpose of HDR. So your question is quite valid. FWIW, the new "report BT.2020 to display" option might help a little, *if* your TV somehow reacts to that. But I suppose most TVs won't.
I figure with an actual HDR TV, and all their excess brightness, you definitely don't want to get sunburned from SDR content, while with HDR content you may want to use the brightness for highlights etc. madVR seems to be able to produce a HDR to SDR signal that would enable this (ie. one that looks "too dark" in normal SDR brightness, but possibly just fine with cranked up brightness), while avoiding all the terrible HDR processing in many TVs. Well maybe future TVs will somehow allow external tonemapping while still accepting PQ (ie. the "process HDR" mode in madVR)
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Old 25th September 2018, 23:19   #52744  |  Link
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Wouldn't that be nice! The current situation at least with LG OLED is not great in that regard.
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Old 25th September 2018, 23:48   #52745  |  Link
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The thing with Oleds is, they are terrible at near-blacks.
Depends on your model, All three manufacturers made advancements in this area recently, Sony is the best in this area ATM.
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Old 26th September 2018, 10:09   #52746  |  Link
madshi
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Someone buy madshi an Oled.


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Originally Posted by nevcairiel View Post
I figure with an actual HDR TV, and all their excess brightness, you definitely don't want to get sunburned from SDR content, while with HDR content you may want to use the brightness for highlights etc. madVR seems to be able to produce a HDR to SDR signal that would enable this (ie. one that looks "too dark" in normal SDR brightness, but possibly just fine with cranked up brightness), while avoiding all the terrible HDR processing in many TVs. Well maybe future TVs will somehow allow external tonemapping while still accepting PQ (ie. the "process HDR" mode in madVR)
I guess another option would be to use profiles to make SDR content darker manually, e.g. by decreasing madVR's "brightness" setting for SDR content.
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Old 26th September 2018, 10:18   #52747  |  Link
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I guess another option would be to use profiles to make SDR content darker manually, e.g. by decreasing madVR's "brightness" setting for SDR content.
I considered that, but then my Desktop/10ft interface would still be burning. No good solutions!
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Old 26th September 2018, 10:26   #52748  |  Link
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I considered that, but then my Desktop/10ft interface would still be burning. No good solutions!
Oh, that's true. Maybe toned down GPU gamma ramps? Or maybe does your TV support IP control? If so, you could switch your TV into different modes through IP control.
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Old 26th September 2018, 10:31   #52749  |  Link
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Or maybe does your TV support IP control? If so, you could switch your TV into different modes through IP control.
Not that I'm aware of. But i guess I could explore what CEC might offer. Maybe two inputs with automatic switching through CEC might work, even if a bit of a yanky setup.
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Old 26th September 2018, 11:21   #52750  |  Link
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Hello. I have a following bug. When I wake up my monitor by typing account password to unlock my system (win10x64 1709), and try to resume the playback of a video that was paused, I get only the sound playing, but the video plays for a second and freezes. And only reopening the file helps. I use madVR v0.92.16, but I experienced same bug with v0.92.14.
I have a script that puts my monitors to sleep when I lock the system. But this problem doesn't manifest if I unlock the system right away, only when I leave it locked for some time.
Hello madshi. Thanks for the quick reply. Glad to know you aware of this problem. I just want to add, that I doubt that my particular system is at fault. I've had this bug with AMD drivers 17.11.1 and now 18.8.1. Have all latest updates. I tried default madvr settings, as well as my custom settings. What I did yesterday is setting "when and how shall the GPU be flushed" all 4 settings to flush&wait(sleep). And I thought that helped, because the whole 2 times after about 10 minites of monitor sleep(but also cpu powerstates go down by ParkControl), the bug dissappeared.

But then I decided to leave the machine running for the night, with monitors in sleep, and bam in the morning that video won't play. So at this point I don't believe just changing madVR settings will help. I'll temporary revert this JRiver profile to EVR, but after madVR the picture is not sharp at all)

Last edited by jokerb47; 26th September 2018 at 11:23.
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Old 26th September 2018, 11:24   #52751  |  Link
mclingo
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Eh? Nothing needs fixing with my setup, SDR and HDR work fine, the only requirement is that I change from PC mode to Home Theatre on the TV to watch HDR.
....C
The only difference the mode makes on mine is that PC mode disables all motion processing, beyond the fact it used to fixed my colour saturation problem with SDR 23hz material there were no other differences.

There is no diff between home threatre and bluray on mine at all for colour or HDR.

Now my colour sat problem is fixed switching modes does nothing at all to colour on mine, but mine is a frst gen OLED and may be different to later models.

I'm using Deep colour on all three HDMI's.
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Old 26th September 2018, 11:27   #52752  |  Link
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Hello madshi. Thanks for the quick reply. Glad to know you aware of this problem. I just want to add, that I doubt that my particular system is at fault. I've had this bug with AMD drivers 17.11.1 and now 18.8.1. Have all latest updates. I tried default madvr settings, as well as my custom settings. What I did yesterday is setting "when and how shall the GPU be flushed" all 4 settings to flush&wait(sleep). And I thought that helped, because the whole 2 times after about 10 minites of monitor sleep(but also cpu powerstates go down by ParkControl), the bug dissappeared.

But then I decided to leave the machine running for the night, with monitors in sleep, and bam in the morning that video won't play. So at this point I don't believe just changing madVR settings will help. I'll temporary revert this JRiver profile to EVR, but after madVR the picture is not sharp at all)
I think you are asking a bit too much of you system to resume playback after the PC has been to sleep, too many variables there, why would you leave the movie playing anyway, just set you player to remember its position in the movie and close it before you machine goes to sleep.
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Old 26th September 2018, 11:28   #52753  |  Link
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Madshi, any chance you could send a dummy load to the GPU when resuming playback so the clock ramps up before the playback starts? Should hopefully fix that second or so of stuttering.
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Old 26th September 2018, 12:07   #52754  |  Link
jokerb47
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I think you are asking a bit too much of you system to resume playback after the PC has been to sleep, too many variables there, why would you leave the movie playing anyway, just set you player to remember its position in the movie and close it before you machine goes to sleep.
Only the monitor goes to sleep(I guess first the gpu and then the monitor). ParkControl just parks the cores and changes power plan to PowerSaver(the CPU doesn't go to sleep). And the movie is just paused. Yes, JRiver does save the playback time, so I can stop the file and reopen it, but for some reason for short videos(like 10min or less), JRiver doesn't save playback time.

Actually, forget ParkControl, I tried disabling it(so cpu is always in HighPerformance), I still caught this bug.

Last edited by jokerb47; 26th September 2018 at 12:16.
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Old 26th September 2018, 14:52   #52755  |  Link
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The thing with Oleds is, they are terrible at near-blacks.
Hi, this isnt strictly true. I have a first gen LG oled and I can tell you that if you put a good signal into it you'll get a good one out.

Being bad a near blacks seemed to be the mantra I LCD owners and reviewers pedalled a lot to the point where i believed it myself and spent what seemed to be hours trying to find out if I had a good or bad example of my TV as something else that was suggested was that some were better than others.
The issue with OLED is not that they are poor at near blacks, its that near blacks tend to house macroblocking and compression artefacts which arenít masked like on an LCD.
This isnít because LCDís are good at near blacks per sey, its because it cant show pure black so where you would see a blocky black mess in a shadow on an OLED you would just see a smooth dark grey none black area on LCD. If you turn up the brightness on an OLED and lose pure black the blocks disappear. I have both an OLED and a fairly decent LCD so I know this to be the case.

This is most apparent on highly compressed streamed material, some of it is completely unwatchable but this is not the fault of OLED, itís the source.
Later gen units have deployed some processing to deal with this but these source problems but Iíve heard that some stuff still looks pretty bad.
This is why I use MADVR, this really helps with compression artefacts and macroblocking to the point where some material is watchable again.
I good example of this is Snowpiercer, this was completely unwatchable some early OLEDs, you could crush some problems away but that would just make something else pop. With MADVR you can pretty much deal with all the problems by deploying reduce banding artefacts on high.
One thing new OLEDs are better at is quantisation errors at near black. Brightness on early units was quite notchy in that there would be a large jump between brightness 49-50 but then nothing again until 53. This could cause quantisation problems where you could get raised blacks but again only on poorly compressed material.
The latest SOLO movie is full of near blacks and greys, I have ZERO issues on my OLED.
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Old 26th September 2018, 14:53   #52756  |  Link
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Only the monitor goes to sleep(I guess first the gpu and then the monitor). ParkControl just parks the cores and changes power plan to PowerSaver(the CPU doesn't go to sleep). And the movie is just paused. Yes, JRiver does save the playback time, so I can stop the file and reopen it, but for some reason for short videos(like 10min or less), JRiver doesn't save playback time.

Actually, forget ParkControl, I tried disabling it(so cpu is always in HighPerformance), I still caught this bug.
just not sure its a bug, there are all sorts of issues with HDMI CEC and other stuff which could cause, you are making you life more difficult by pausing the movie, just stop it and start it mate.
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Old 26th September 2018, 15:02   #52757  |  Link
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Hi, this isnt strictly true. I have a first gen LG oled and I can tell you that if you put a good signal into it you'll get a good one out.

Being bad a near blacks seemed to be the mantra I LCD owners and reviewers pedalled a lot to the point where i believed it myself and spent what seemed to be hours trying to find out if I had a good or bad example of my TV as something else that was suggested was that some were better than others.
The issue with OLED is not that they are poor at near blacks, its that near blacks tend to house macroblocking and compression artefacts which aren’t masked like on an LCD.
This isn’t because LCD’s are good at near blacks per sey, its because it cant show pure black so where you would see a blocky black mess in a shadow on an OLED you would just see a smooth dark grey none black area on LCD. If you turn up the brightness on an OLED and lose pure black the blocks disappear. I have both an OLED and a fairly decent LCD so I know this to be the case.

This is most apparent on highly compressed streamed material, some of it is completely unwatchable but this is not the fault of OLED, it’s the source.
Later gen units have deployed some processing to deal with this but these source problems but I’ve heard that some stuff still looks pretty bad.
This is why I use MADVR, this really helps with compression artefacts and macroblocking to the point where some material is watchable again.
I good example of this is Snowpiercer, this was completely unwatchable some early OLEDs, you could crush some problems away but that would just make something else pop. With MADVR you can pretty much deal with all the problems by deploying reduce banding artefacts on high.
One thing new OLEDs are better at is quantisation errors at near black. Brightness on early units was quite notchy in that there would be a large jump between brightness 49-50 but then nothing again until 53. This could cause quantisation problems where you could get raised blacks but again only on poorly compressed material.
The latest SOLO movie is full of near blacks and greys, I have ZERO issues on my OLED.
This is quite true. I come from a Panny plasma screen and I can honestly say the OLED is quite a leap forward. But you're 100% correct that it will emphasize poor source quality. Last night watching Mayans on my cable system where they compress everything to 720p59 at around 3mbps the night scenes were attrocious on my OLED. But that's not the OLED's fault! The source was highly compressed and the OLED didn't mask it. Nor do I think it should IMO. Black levels on this thing has been extremely impressive. Like you, I found Solo to be excellent on the OLED.
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Old 26th September 2018, 15:19   #52758  |  Link
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passive MVC 3D OLED is just sick as well, is by far the best viewing experience you'll ever have on a 65+ inch TV, obviously IMHO, its wipes the floor with HDR for immersion and wow factor.

This is why i havent upgraded mine and another reason why I use MADVR + LAV
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Old 26th September 2018, 17:16   #52759  |  Link
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Just to see if I understood things discussed in the last few pages correctly... (I currently still use a Kuro plasma, so I can't test HDR).

madVR offers the option to tone map HDR. This is of great use for people with projectors, as those are quite limited in the amount of nits they can produce.
OLEDs could benefit as well, as they are less capable than LCDs in this regard (nits produced), but, at least for LGs, there's no way to deactivate internal HDR tonemapping without going SDR (thus limiting panel light output below HDR requirements).

Correct so far?

madshi states that TVs are not "smart" enough to deactivate their internal tonemapping routines. What I don't understand is: if madVR already outputs a tone mapped picture and the user has inputted correct peak brightness values for their TV... what would the TV tone map for? Am I correct in assuming that the problem stems from OLED not having a peak brightness "per se" but a peak brighness depending on highlights size? In madVR HDR configuration tab there's just a single "target peak nits" value to input.

If one checks measurements such as these: https://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/lg/c8#comparison_1675, it's pretty clear that the peak brighness varies immensely according to the zone to be displayed at high nits, due to ABL. As such, and given the current single value input available, I doubt that madVR can provide a better tone mapping results than the internal system in an OLED screen. Am I wrong/missing something? Is there a chance we could have a more flexible configuration for the target peak nits, in order to better serve OLED screens?

Thanks for reading and for answers. And thanks forever to madshi for all he does for us HTPC lovers.
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Old 26th September 2018, 17:24   #52760  |  Link
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passive MVC 3D OLED is just sick as well, is by far the best viewing experience you'll ever have on a 65+ inch TV, obviously IMHO, its wipes the floor with HDR for immersion and wow factor.

This is why i havent upgraded mine and another reason why I use MADVR + LAV
Yea, I wish I had jumped on OLED sooner than I did. No more 3D capable displays kicking around (or very expensive older ones if you can find them). I moved my Panny plasma to another room to keep 3D alive but there's no madvr capability in that room. There's always a trade-off. LOL
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