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Old 26th September 2018, 22:00   #52761  |  Link
gxcare
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Hi,

I have problem rendering HDR content with my configuration:
  • MPC-HC 1.7.13
  • LAV 0.72
  • madVR 0.92.16
  • GTX 970
  • TV LG B6
The images look darker than they should be, also in the screen snapshots. Playing the same files from the TV player they are much better.
I am not sure if the problem is related to the control of HDR from MadVR (and Windows 10), or the image decoding. Any help will be appreciated.
I am adding a snapshot with the MadVR details during the playback. Changing the display mode does not affect the result.

https://ibb.co/iq4O6p
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Old 26th September 2018, 22:35   #52762  |  Link
iSeries
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^ make sure the black level on your tv is set to High during HDR playback. Does SDR playback as it should?
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Old 27th September 2018, 00:31   #52763  |  Link
mrmarioman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gxcare View Post
Hi,

I have problem rendering HDR content with my configuration:
  • MPC-HC 1.7.13
  • LAV 0.72
  • madVR 0.92.16
  • GTX 970
  • TV LG B6
The images look darker than they should be, also in the screen snapshots. Playing the same files from the TV player they are much better.
I am not sure if the problem is related to the control of HDR from MadVR (and Windows 10), or the image decoding. Any help will be appreciated.
I am adding a snapshot with the MadVR details during the playback. Changing the display mode does not affect the result.

https://ibb.co/iq4O6p
Have you tried using Windows' HDR (enabling HDR in Windows' settings) instead of using Nvidia? I'm also having problems with Nvidia but it looks fine fine with Windows. You might want to try it to discard other things.
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Old 27th September 2018, 02:04   #52764  |  Link
Rectal Prolapse
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madshi, thanks for 0.92.16 - the HDR -> SDR conversion is excellent - I tested the UHD-BD of Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire, the wizard duel at the end. The highlights are no longer clipped!
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Old 27th September 2018, 02:40   #52765  |  Link
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That username.. Surely the mods wouldn't.. 2005 Join date.. Oh.

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Originally Posted by mclingo View Post
I think you are asking a bit too much of you system to resume playback after the PC has been to sleep
MadVR I would think just needs to re-initialize, pretty sure madshi could work something out before 1.0.

Last edited by ryrynz; 27th September 2018 at 02:43.
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Old 27th September 2018, 10:28   #52766  |  Link
mclingo
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Originally Posted by ryrynz View Post
That username.. Surely the mods wouldn't.. 2005 Join date.. Oh.



MadVR I would think just needs to re-initialize, pretty sure madshi could work something out before 1.0.
yeah that might work if he's playing movies at desktop res, otherwise the movie will likely be kicked to 60hz desktop res, a MADVR reset might be able to kick it back to 23hz but I would have thgought the movie would have to be restarted anyway, mine do when I pause KODI DS and my screen saver kicks in, that could be windowed mode issue though I guess.

Just not sure its really a problem we should be asking MADSHI to spend his precious time on, how many people really leave movies paused when their machine goes to sleep, makes zero sense to me.

Its up to MADSHI though.
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Old 27th September 2018, 11:55   #52767  |  Link
j82k
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Originally Posted by mclingo View Post
Hi, this isnt strictly true. I have a first gen LG oled and I can tell you that if you put a good signal into it you'll get a good one out.

Being bad a near blacks seemed to be the mantra I LCD owners and reviewers pedalled a lot to the point where i believed it myself and spent what seemed to be hours trying to find out if I had a good or bad example of my TV as something else that was suggested was that some were better than others.
The issue with OLED is not that they are poor at near blacks, its that near blacks tend to house macroblocking and compression artefacts which arenít masked like on an LCD.
This isnít because LCDís are good at near blacks per sey, its because it cant show pure black so where you would see a blocky black mess in a shadow on an OLED you would just see a smooth dark grey none black area on LCD. If you turn up the brightness on an OLED and lose pure black the blocks disappear. I have both an OLED and a fairly decent LCD so I know this to be the case.

This is most apparent on highly compressed streamed material, some of it is completely unwatchable but this is not the fault of OLED, itís the source.
Later gen units have deployed some processing to deal with this but these source problems but Iíve heard that some stuff still looks pretty bad.
This is why I use MADVR, this really helps with compression artefacts and macroblocking to the point where some material is watchable again.
I good example of this is Snowpiercer, this was completely unwatchable some early OLEDs, you could crush some problems away but that would just make something else pop. With MADVR you can pretty much deal with all the problems by deploying reduce banding artefacts on high.
One thing new OLEDs are better at is quantisation errors at near black. Brightness on early units was quite notchy in that there would be a large jump between brightness 49-50 but then nothing again until 53. This could cause quantisation problems where you could get raised blacks but again only on poorly compressed material.
The latest SOLO movie is full of near blacks and greys, I have ZERO issues on my OLED.
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Originally Posted by SamuriHL View Post
This is quite true. I come from a Panny plasma screen and I can honestly say the OLED is quite a leap forward. But you're 100% correct that it will emphasize poor source quality. Last night watching Mayans on my cable system where they compress everything to 720p59 at around 3mbps the night scenes were attrocious on my OLED. But that's not the OLED's fault! The source was highly compressed and the OLED didn't mask it. Nor do I think it should IMO. Black levels on this thing has been extremely impressive. Like you, I found Solo to be excellent on the OLED.
Ah, the good old "It's not the Oleds fault when compressed content looks bad" theory, that gets posted whenever someone complains about near-black artifacting issues on forums...
Not true, at least not when it comes to LG Oleds.
My 2016 C6 had very poor near black gradation and came out of black way to fast and there was no way to really fix this.

Now my 2018 C8 is very different. Near-blacks have smoother gradation and it doesn't come out of black so fast. Test pattern usually look pretty good.

But then why does this thing show terrible macroblocking/artifacting/flashing near-blacks in certain scenes??

Here is what's happening on 2018 LG Oleds (2017 probably too but I never owned one):
The way they implemented the better near-blacks seems to be a comrpomise. On a still image that is not moving everything looks fine, also test pattern usually look fine.

If I play such a scene that shows ugly macroblocking or flashing near-blacks and pause it, all the macroblocks and ugliness suddenly vanishes. If I hit play it appears again...
Now lets pause the scene (picture looking good) and use mpc-hc's pan&scan move function bound to keyboard keys to shift the picture around. What's happening now is that every time the picture shifts some of the near-blacks including macroblocks that were barely visible before flash up for like a split second, making it look really ugly. If I display the picture in a borderless window and move it around with my mouse parts of it begin to glow.

This effect doesn't show up in every near-black scene, far from it. Neutral gray is fine, it seems only certain colored near-blacks are affected, some more than others and that's why the flashing near-blacks effect doesn't show up in every scene. This issue is also present with high quality content like UHD Blu-ray but much more subtle. The reason for that I think is that on high quality content there usually aren't any rapidly changing larger areas of the same color like macroblocks. Though on scene changes and fade to blacks I can sometimes see it flash up and also during camera pans the edges of objects sometimes start glowing or some parts of the picture are flickering.
It's really weird as it seems like this effect only shows up when specific near-black colored pixels change to other specific colors and that's why only certain scenes are affected. It's kinda like the pixels are getting too much voltage to get them started and then they calm down.


Increasing the brightness on the TV to a certain point completely fixes this problem but it induces black glow and also makes the near-black gradation worse. I guess a lot of people who don't watch in a dark room do that anyway, as they don't care about black no longer being true black. Since there is such a big panel to panel variance on Oleds, some might even have some panel glow at default brightness and those will probably never experience this problem. Setting color on the TV to 0 also fixes this, which makes sense as from my observations only certain colored near-blacks are causing this.

When I first noticed this I thought it must be a defective TV but on the other hand I've found quite a few posts on forums where people reported similar issues but no one ever seems to really investigate this and then people jump in and tell the "Oled is so good it shows every flaw in content" myth...

So I requested a panel replacement from LG, not only for the here explained issue but also due to vertical banding and they agreed to it. When the technician arrived I showed him the flashing near-blacks issue and he immediately said that he has seen this problem on a lot of Oleds and he doesn't think a new panel would fix this and he also couldn't really explain why this is happening. He still agreed to install the new panel though.
It didn't fix the problem, it still showed during the exact same scenes as with the old panel, though the vertical banding is a bit better. What I also noticed is there seems to be a huge panel variance regarding the low end. The new panel is much darker on everything below 10% and has some heavy black crush. So comparing settings on Oled seems to be really pointless with such a variance from panel to panel.


Here are 3 screenshots if anybody wants to test this on their 2017 or 2018 oled. 2016s didn't have this problem, they had poor near-blacks from the get go even without the picture moving.
https://drive.google.com/drive/folde...tx?usp=sharing

To test this you need to shift the pictures around. Mpc-hc has controls for that (set them to keyboard shortcuts), or display it in a borderless window on a completely black desktop and move it around with the mouse or use the TVs live zoom to zoom in and pan the picture around.
Best to do this in a dark room at default TV brightness, technicolor default preset. Just make sure to have set the correct video levels. Also disable any madVR picture enhancements for testing.
As there is quite a big panel to panel variance I'm not sure if this test will even show the problem on every 2017+ Oled because slight changes in settings can make it better or even fix it in one scene but then make it worse in another.
Also some panels might be more prone to this than others, or might require different colored near-blacks to cause the issue.
The only thing that really seemed to fix it on both of my panels was to turn color to 0 or to increase brightness, making near-blacks brighter but this also results in black glow and worse gradation, so not really a good option.
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Old 27th September 2018, 12:35   #52768  |  Link
ccrys
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I want to upscale 1080p bluray content to 2160 but I don't see image improvement. I have 4k 55" screen tv and 2.3m distance.

I tried with Bluray Season 2 of GOT with different NGU settings.

Can someone recommand me some settings for GTX1060 6 gb?
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Old 27th September 2018, 12:46   #52769  |  Link
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Why do people keep buying the LG OLEDs when Pana and Sony based on reviews appear to make better displays? =/

ccrys, oh boy.. I just upgraded by 1060 to a 1080 and TBH I'm not getting a lot extra out of it picture wise, it's quieter and I can boost chroma a little but a 1060 6GB really is the bees knees for the price on 1080 content with madVR.

What I did with it was use NGU sharp high doubling and then used SSIM 2D to downscale, you should be able to get away with NGU AA medium for chroma. Slap any extra sharpening you want on top but you won't need much if it's good content.
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Old 27th September 2018, 13:05   #52770  |  Link
yok833
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Hi guys,
When I have tried HDR-SDR on my LG OLED 2017 tv, the picture is much too dark ?
Is there something I am doing wrong or should I only use HDR Passthrough ?
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Old 27th September 2018, 15:08   #52771  |  Link
mclingo
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Originally Posted by j82k View Post
Ah, the good old "It's not the Oleds fault when compressed content looks bad" .......

seriously, i've had this discussion too many times over the 3 years i've had my panel, I have no issues that arent on the source, and i'm not prepared to waste any more time looking for issues that just arent there. Maybe i've been lucky and you've been unlucky with your panels, really sorry if this is the case but I have two other mates with B7's and they also reported zero issues.

if the panel is so bad why dont you exchange it?
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Old 27th September 2018, 15:19   #52772  |  Link
Razoola
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Originally Posted by yok833 View Post
Hi guys,
When I have tried HDR-SDR on my LG OLED 2017 tv, the picture is much too dark ?
Is there something I am doing wrong or should I only use HDR Passthrough ?
If you have a HDR TV (which 2017 LG OLED is) why on earth would you want to do a HDR to SDR conversion?
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Old 27th September 2018, 15:25   #52773  |  Link
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Originally Posted by famasfilms View Post
"Make sure you enable Deep Color on that HDMI input, because my E6 does UHD at 23.976 / 24 on the PC label. However, PC label absolutely ruins HDR on the LG E6, locks settings, and makes it look washed out. You also cannot get 4:4:4 without using the "PC" label. So if you are using the display as both a desktop monitor and an HTPC, gotta switch between PC mode and non-PC mode depending on HDR. It sucks, shame on LG for never fixing it. "

So I guess you could leave it on Home Theatre if all you do is watch video's, but my PC is not just a HTPC
I have the 2015 LG55EG920V and I don't have this problem, it is constantly on PC mode and HDR looks very good. MadVR switches it on and off (when it should) and PC, xbox / PS4 and UHD player (Samsung) are all connected via my AVR SR6010 .

I don't recognize these problems , but I will check if Home Theater would be an improvement...
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Old 27th September 2018, 15:27   #52774  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Razoola View Post
If you have a HDR TV (which 2017 LG OLED is) why on earth would you want to do a HDR to SDR conversion?
Perhaps he doesn't like the TV's choice for rollof...BT.2390 was out just recently AFAIK...
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Old 27th September 2018, 15:49   #52775  |  Link
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Originally Posted by yok833 View Post
Hi guys,
When I have tried HDR-SDR on my LG OLED 2017 tv, the picture is much too dark ?
Is there something I am doing wrong or should I only use HDR Passthrough ?
Try cranking up the brightness of SDR mode and increasing the target nits.

The gamma value set in "this display is already calibrated" (I'm guessing it is the default 2.20) might also be crushing black. I would experiment with that after changing the brightness of the display. I've gotten the best results with gamma 2.40. You could also try the other way and use gamma 2.00.

If you set the target nits to 480 nits, you get a neutral reference white (100 nits) without compression. This would mean your display would have to be 480 nits or so to avoid the most unwanted compression.

Basically, make your SDR calibration brighter so HDR content has room to breathe.
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Old 27th September 2018, 15:54   #52776  |  Link
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Why do people keep buying the LG OLEDs when Pana and Sony based on reviews appear to make better displays? =/
Panasonic no longer sells panels in the US. I would have bought one in a heartbeat as I love my Panny plasma. Sony until recently had some issues that were finally fixed in firmware updates. And finally, I got my C8 for a price that can't be beat. That's the short answer in my case.
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Old 27th September 2018, 15:56   #52777  |  Link
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If one checks measurements such as these: https://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/lg/c8#comparison_1675, it's pretty clear that the peak brighness varies immensely according to the zone to be displayed at high nits, due to ABL. As such, and given the current single value input available, I doubt that madVR can provide a better tone mapping results than the internal system in an OLED screen. Am I wrong/missing something? Is there a chance we could have a more flexible configuration for the target peak nits, in order to better serve OLED screens?

Thanks for reading and for answers. And thanks forever to madshi for all he does for us HTPC lovers.
The variable brightness capabilities of a display would mean the display would be better at adjusting its tone mapping to handle different content. It might also only measure the brightest pixel to set its tone curve for each video. Most displays that have a fixed tone curve won't clip, even if the input is below the display capabilities, so they always measure the input against the display curve and determine if the pixel should be tone mapped (reduced in brightness).

The only working PQ pre-tone mapping feature that I know of uses presets of 500 nits, 1,000 nits and 1,500 nits. An OLED is supposed to select 1,000 nits. If it is actually 700-800 nits, the pre-tone mapping is just reducing the brightness of the input for about 20% of the HDR titles out there. So it isn't really that useful unless your display clips at the top rather than tone maps. All the new OLEDs also use dynamic tone mapping and shouldn't need help from madVR unless HDR -> SDR is used.
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Old 27th September 2018, 16:35   #52778  |  Link
j82k
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Originally Posted by ryrynz View Post
Why do people keep buying the LG OLEDs when Pana and Sony based on reviews appear to make better displays? =/
Only LG manufactures these Oled panels. So even if I buy a Sony that doesn't necessarily mean that it solves my issues and if it doesn't then I would've wasted like 1K that the Sony costs more.
Also I didn't know anything about this problem when I bought the LG because usually all you read on forums is "it's a source problem".
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Old 27th September 2018, 16:47   #52779  |  Link
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if you read the reviews on OLEDs there is very little difference in PQ across all ranges as they are all the same panel tech, differences are mainly motion related.
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Old 27th September 2018, 16:55   #52780  |  Link
gxcare
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Originally Posted by iSeries View Post
^ make sure the black level on your tv is set to High during HDR playback. Does SDR playback as it should?
Yes, SDR is OK.

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Originally Posted by mrmarioman View Post
Have you tried using Windows' HDR (enabling HDR in Windows' settings) instead of using Nvidia? I'm also having problems with Nvidia but it looks fine fine with Windows. You might want to try it to discard other things.
I remember I had problems with HDR when controlled by Windows, but probably things improved, I will give it a try.

In any case I am starting to think that the problem is that the GTX 970 does not support HEVC 10-bit. LAV works is software and I guess it is somehow reducing the quality of the image to handle the workload.
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