Welcome to Doom9's Forum, THE in-place to be for everyone interested in DVD conversion.

Before you start posting please read the forum rules. By posting to this forum you agree to abide by the rules.

 

Go Back   Doom9's Forum > Video Encoding > New and alternative video codecs

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 10th May 2020, 18:25   #1  |  Link
orion44
None
 
orion44's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: The Background
Posts: 213
Does Windows Media Encoder work on Windows 10?

Has anyone used Windows Media Encoder on Windows 10?

Does it work properly?
orion44 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10th May 2020, 22:18   #2  |  Link
videoh
Useful n00b
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 1,390
Yes.

Yes.
videoh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10th May 2020, 22:25   #3  |  Link
orion44
None
 
orion44's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: The Background
Posts: 213
Quote:
Originally Posted by videoh View Post
Yes.

Yes.
Did you use the 64 bit version of the encoder or the 32 bit?
orion44 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th May 2020, 02:14   #4  |  Link
videoh
Useful n00b
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 1,390
Sorry, never used it personally.
videoh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th May 2020, 05:58   #5  |  Link
benwaggoner
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 3,248
Quote:
Originally Posted by orion44 View Post
Did you use the 64 bit version of the encoder or the 32 bit?
The 64-bit version was always a little fraught IIRC.

The best encoder for WMV files is Expression Encoder 5, which is free and works on Windows 10. Only 32-bit, but Large Address Aware.

You can pay extra to get H.264 support, but I can only imagine how glacially slow and primative that implementation would seem from today's perspective!
__________________
Ben Waggoner
Principal Video Specialist, Amazon Prime Video

My Compression Book
benwaggoner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th May 2020, 15:23   #6  |  Link
tormento
Acid fr0g
 
tormento's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Italy
Posts: 1,501
It would be even more interesting to know how to demux WMV to primitive streams, how to feed AviSynth with video part and how to convert to other formats the audio too.
__________________
@turment on Telegram
tormento is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th May 2020, 07:42   #7  |  Link
filler56789
SuperVirus
 
filler56789's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Antarctic Japan
Posts: 1,043
Quote:
Originally Posted by tormento View Post
It would be even more interesting to know how to demux WMV to primitive streams, how to feed AviSynth with video part and how to convert to other formats the audio too.
1) use asf2vc1;
{assuming nobody uses the FourCC "WMV3" anymore }

2) before anything else, better remux to AVI with VirtualDub's direct stream copy;

3) wma2wav for decoding, your favorite audio compressors for re-encoding;
filler56789 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th May 2020, 06:24   #8  |  Link
benwaggoner
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 3,248
Quote:
Originally Posted by filler56789 View Post
1) use asf2vc1;
{assuming nobody uses the FourCC "WMV3" anymore }
Lot of the WMV files out there in the wild are WMV3; maybe even the majority of them. WVC1 really was only there in the last few years of Windows Media and Smooth Streaming.
__________________
Ben Waggoner
Principal Video Specialist, Amazon Prime Video

My Compression Book
benwaggoner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th May 2020, 07:44   #9  |  Link
foxyshadis
ангел смерти
 
foxyshadis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Lost
Posts: 9,496
Quote:
Originally Posted by tormento View Post
It would be even more interesting to know how to demux WMV to primitive streams, how to feed AviSynth with video part and how to convert to other formats the audio too.
The primary difficulty is that there is no raw stream format, not even a de-facto one. All raw streams only exist on the fly, from container to container. There were a couple of ideas, and ffmpeg will demux something that it'll sometimes remux, but it never hit the critical mass where defining a raw bitstream was needed. All WMV exists within ASF, MKV, MPEG-PS, or MPEG-TS, and that's just all there is to say about that.
__________________
There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order.
foxyshadis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th May 2020, 15:00   #10  |  Link
StainlessS
HeartlessS Usurer
 
StainlessS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Over the rainbow
Posts: 8,240
I think VirtualDub 1.3c had some kind of asf capability, authors were asked to take it down by M$.
It used to be (I think) on original Doom9.org main site which is now down for some time.
1.3c source does not exist on SourceForge where 'all vd source' is supposed to exist, but you may find it by
looking for "VirtualDub_source-v1.3c.zip". [or PM me if anyone wants it].

EDIT:
Quote:
does not exist on SourceForge where 'all vd source' is supposed to exist
https://sourceforge.net/projects/vir...irtualdub-win/
__________________
I sometimes post sober.
StainlessS@MediaFire ::: AND/OR ::: StainlessS@SendSpace

"Some infinities are bigger than other infinities", but how many of them are infinitely bigger ???

Last edited by StainlessS; 17th May 2020 at 15:19.
StainlessS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th May 2020, 01:37   #11  |  Link
gonca
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Somewhere over the rainbow
Posts: 1,002
Try
https://www.videohelp.com/software/Virtualdub-1.3c-ASF
gonca is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th May 2020, 02:29   #12  |  Link
StainlessS
HeartlessS Usurer
 
StainlessS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Over the rainbow
Posts: 8,240
Thanks gonca, some time since I had the executable.
__________________
I sometimes post sober.
StainlessS@MediaFire ::: AND/OR ::: StainlessS@SendSpace

"Some infinities are bigger than other infinities", but how many of them are infinitely bigger ???
StainlessS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th May 2020, 20:46   #13  |  Link
benwaggoner
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 3,248
Quote:
Originally Posted by foxyshadis View Post
The primary difficulty is that there is no raw stream format, not even a de-facto one. All raw streams only exist on the fly, from container to container. There were a couple of ideas, and ffmpeg will demux something that it'll sometimes remux, but it never hit the critical mass where defining a raw bitstream was needed. All WMV exists within ASF, MKV, MPEG-PS, or MPEG-TS, and that's just all there is to say about that.
VC-1 Advanced Profile did support an elementary stream format, but Main and prior WMV versions did not.

*.vc1, IIRC? Although I rarely used it for much.
__________________
Ben Waggoner
Principal Video Specialist, Amazon Prime Video

My Compression Book
benwaggoner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st May 2020, 04:03   #14  |  Link
zambelli
Doom9ing since 2001
 
zambelli's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Seattle, WA, USA
Posts: 1,972
Quote:
Originally Posted by foxyshadis
The primary difficulty is that there is no raw stream format, not even a de-facto one. All raw streams only exist on the fly, from container to container.
Quote:
Originally Posted by benwaggoner View Post
VC-1 Advanced Profile did support an elementary stream format, but Main and prior WMV versions did not.
*.vc1, IIRC? Although I rarely used it for much.
Yeah, VC-1 AP had a standard elementary stream format, though I can't remember if that was defined in SMPTE 421M or in some other standard. But it definitely did exist.

VC-1 SP and MP, because they originated as WMV9 codecs, were indeed tied to ASF container so they never had an officially standardized ES format. However, there did exist an unofficial one used internally at Microsoft. I only knew it by its extension, RCV, but I honestly have no idea what it stood for. I distinctly remember using an ASF2RCV command line tool.

Ben, what do you think is the statute of limitations on our Microsoft NDAs?
zambelli is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st May 2020, 04:17   #15  |  Link
zambelli
Doom9ing since 2001
 
zambelli's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Seattle, WA, USA
Posts: 1,972
As for WME9... It was mostly just a shim for Windows Media DMO/MFT libraries, so if one is just looking to encode video to WMV9/VC-1, the codecs are already installed with Windows - it's just a matter of building the right MF/DShow graphs. Back in its heyday there was WMNicEnc, which basically did exactly that, and some years later someone wrote WMAEncode using the same approach for WMA.
The VC-1 encoder in Expression Encoder was based on Microsoft's VC-1 Encoder SDK, which wasn't actually all that much different from the native Windows encoder (wmvencod.dll), at least when it came to producing WMV output. In fact, considering that the native Windows encoder DLL outlived the VC-1 SDK, who knows, it might even be a better encoder these days. I haven't encoded anything in VC-1 in at least 6-7 years.
zambelli is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st May 2020, 22:43   #16  |  Link
benwaggoner
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 3,248
Quote:
Originally Posted by zambelli View Post
As for WME9... It was mostly just a shim for Windows Media DMO/MFT libraries, so if one is just looking to encode video to WMV9/VC-1, the codecs are already installed with Windows - it's just a matter of building the right MF/DShow graphs. Back in its heyday there was WMNicEnc, which basically did exactly that, and some years later someone wrote WMAEncode using the same approach for WMA.
The VC-1 encoder in Expression Encoder was based on Microsoft's VC-1 Encoder SDK, which wasn't actually all that much different from the native Windows encoder (wmvencod.dll), at least when it came to producing WMV output. In fact, considering that the native Windows encoder DLL outlived the VC-1 SDK, who knows, it might even be a better encoder these days. I haven't encoded anything in VC-1 in at least 6-7 years.
I think there were some perf improvements that came out in Windows after the final build of Expression Encoder. Windows 7 (or was it 8?) had about a 30% speedup over previous versions due to skipping a bunch of stuff on B-frames that didn't do anything meaningful to improve them. Plus more sane defaults, like having the in-loop deblocking filter on by default.

Using the DLL also allows for 64-bit for more perf, while Expression Encoder and the VC-1 SDK were 32-bit only.

Lookahead Rate Control was only in EE and VC-1 SDK, IIRC, so those are probably still unbeatable for 1-pass CBR quality.

I actually did some VC-1 encodes last year as part of my Benwaggoner Compression Challenge. I wanted to see how well the adaptive resolution adaptive GOP duration VC-1 encoder compared to more modern codecs. Terribly, it turns out, and the resulting file is nearly impossible to play without a .dll installed by Expression Encoder.
__________________
Ben Waggoner
Principal Video Specialist, Amazon Prime Video

My Compression Book
benwaggoner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22nd May 2020, 02:47   #17  |  Link
Blue_MiSfit
Derek Prestegard IRL
 
Blue_MiSfit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 5,696
Thanks for all you guys did for the ecosystem back in the day at Microsoft

Major league trailblazer status!
Blue_MiSfit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd May 2020, 01:45   #18  |  Link
benwaggoner
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 3,248
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue_MiSfit View Post
Thanks for all you guys did for the ecosystem back in the day at Microsoft

Major league trailblazer status!
Sometimes I think of it as a dead-end waste of time. But Smooth Streaming begat DASH. VC-1 yielded a good licensing regieme for H.264.

Expression Encoder was also the absolute best designed desktop compression tool in history. Alas, that's a whole market sector that seems to have vanished for commercial products.
__________________
Ben Waggoner
Principal Video Specialist, Amazon Prime Video

My Compression Book
benwaggoner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th June 2020, 00:39   #19  |  Link
zambelli
Doom9ing since 2001
 
zambelli's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Seattle, WA, USA
Posts: 1,972
Quote:
Originally Posted by benwaggoner View Post
Sometimes I think of it as a dead-end waste of time. But Smooth Streaming begat DASH. VC-1 yielded a good licensing regieme for H.264.
It is interesting to see now 10 years later which MSFT technologies from those days ended up having the biggest impacts on the industry. Microsoft PIFF, which was based on ISOBMFF, led to MPEG CMAF and CENC (as well as the ill-fated UltraViolet Common File Format). Smooth Streaming, which was essentially PIFF + XML manifests, led to MPEG DASH. Silverlight (may it rest in peace) MediaStreamSource API established the web app media extensibility model that became HTML5 Media Source Extensions (MSE).
VC-1, as you noted, drove MPEG-LA to improve H.264 licensing terms, and it ended up powering the first 2-3 years of all HD optical discs, not to mention early Netflix streaming.

So all in all... Even though the individual products failed to win significant market share (mostly thanks to Microsoft's inability to stay focused on digital media for more than 4 years at a time), I think the underlying tech ultimately had a much bigger long-term impact than any of the products it was originally invented for.
zambelli is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10th June 2020, 17:25   #20  |  Link
benwaggoner
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 3,248
Yeah. And the industry still hasn't caught up with Silverlight Enhanced Movies with their Blu-ray caliber extras and navigation.

I recall we did some good things with UX for accessibility using sideband XML for subtitles.
__________________
Ben Waggoner
Principal Video Specialist, Amazon Prime Video

My Compression Book
benwaggoner is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 04:04.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions Inc.