madVR - high quality video renderer (GPU assisted) - Page 3025

VBB · 29th October 2020, 21:34

I can answer those questions, since I've used smooth motion for a long time (currently taking a break). SM blends frames, but it does not alter the motion, unlike interpolation. There is no soap opera effect. For SM to be effective, you'll want to set the frame rate as high as possible. Like As said, it's even better at 120Hz, but it's definitely fine at 60Hz. Nobody knows when SM will be fixed. Just use 112b for now.

A note: SM is best used with OLEDs due to their inherent super fast response time. The slight blur SM creates helps with the sometimes jarring stutter of low frame rate content. Since you're using a projector, you might not gain anything from SM, except zero drops/repeats.

As far as performance goes, SM does add a substantial hit, so you might have to adjust some of your settings.

Asmodian · 29th October 2020, 22:25

I entirely agree with VBB, but adding my own explanations too.

It doesn't necessarily double the rendering time but it can increase the overhead for presenting frames a lot. On my system it outputs five times the number of frames (120 from 23.976). Smooth motion is nearly the last step so it does not increase the number of frames for most of madVR's processing but dithering is after smooth motion. Because of this it is very helpful to switch to ordered dithering when using smooth motion. I like ordered dithering on my OLEDs anyway but I liked ED more on plasma or LCD. Still, ordered dithering is very high quality while being much faster than error diffusion.

I do not have my display set to 23.976 Hz, it is always at 120 Hz. At very low refresh rates smooth motion is bad and when refresh rate matches the frame rate smooth motion should not be used. The refresh rate needs to be above 2x the frame rate for smooth motion to output good quality.

No dreaded soap opera effect.

Have you seen the diagram in the third post of the link in my signature? It is helpful when trying to understand what is going on.

huhn · 29th October 2020, 23:02

smooth motion only outputs about 48 different frames a sec at 120 HZ with a 23p/24p source a lot of frames which are identical(so it's doing nothing except for the first one) and 1 blended in between when it overlaps with he next frame.

you can use MPC HC with statics and madVR using windowed old path to get the rough numbers. at 47 fps it'S only slowing rising. there is a "chance" for smooth to do nothing and it is not applied on the first source frame so the number is a little lower then the actual number presented.

maybe worth testing if madVR is in this case more efficient with dithering because it is true not outputting more frames.

roughly you are outputting double the frame rate when the display refreshrate is double or more.

SamuriHL · 29th October 2020, 23:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by zind1703

What gives you AV1 today?
And does anyone know when the H266 encoder will arrive?

Netflix.

Youtube. More will come once there's more devices out there that support it.

VBB · 30th October 2020, 00:03

The way I see it, at 100/120Hz the only benefit of SM is the zero frame drop/repeat. Everything goes into 100/119/120 evenly, so even pull-down is no longer needed for judder-free motion. I would set madVR to only switch between those three frequencies. Am I wrong?

huhn · 30th October 2020, 00:14

sounds good. makes frame interpolation impossible i see this as a bonus.

VBB · 30th October 2020, 00:21

A short and non-confrontational reply from huhn is really all I could ask for

Asmodian · 30th October 2020, 01:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by huhn

smooth motion only outputs about 48 different frames a sec at 120 HZ with a 23p/24p source a lot of frames which are identical(so it's doing nothing except for the first one) and 1 blended in between when it overlaps with he next frame.

Ah, good point, I was only thinking about frames presented when I wrote that (display at 23.976 Hz v.s. 120 Hz). madVR has to dither and calibrate a lot fewer frames than it presents, even with smooth motion, and it always presents the same number of frames at the same refresh rate (D3D11 and present every v-sync).

Internally smooth motion can output both frames that will be presented multiple times and frames that won't be. I just never think about it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by huhn

maybe worth testing if madVR is in this case more efficient with dithering because it is true not outputting more frames.

Hmm, I do notice a much bigger hit from ED v.s. ordered dithering when smooth motion is enabled but I have not quantified it. It could be a simple 2x.

huhn · 30th October 2020, 01:44

i take the static information and the description from madshi into account to get to my results that doesn't mean i'm correct.

Andy o · 30th October 2020, 03:43

So that was a bust on the 3070 attempt. I've been using nvidia for a while (GTX 1650S) mainly because of auto HDR switching and G-Sync, but the former is working with AMD as well? Also with madVR's frame rate calibration? Since the new AMDs will have VRR I think I'll be okay with the 6800 if these issues are solved.

SamuriHL · 30th October 2020, 04:12

Don't get me started on trying to buy a 30x0 card. I've been after a 3080 since they came out so I can crank up some settings in a couple of my madvr profiles. I looked at the 3070 this morning but the situation hasn't improved with online retailers... Was able to add to cart but was gone before I could checkout. We've discussed it in the hardware thread. The AMD cards do look compelling.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

LordX2 · 30th October 2020, 04:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by SamuriHL

Don't get me started on trying to buy a 30x0 card. I've been after a 3080 since they came out so I can crank up some settings in a couple of my madvr profiles. I looked at the 3070 this morning but the situation hasn't improved with online retailers... Was able to add to cart but was gone before I could checkout. We've discussed it in the hardware thread. The AMD cards do look compelling.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

I am going to be building a new htpc soon for another location. Could you elaborate a bit for me on the AMD stuff?

huhn · 30th October 2020, 11:16

they have on paper competing GPU it will take 3 more weeks before we know for sure and they get independently tested to confirm there claims and maybe even longer before we hear about issues with madVR there is something already showing up for 3000 series but as always stay calm.

Klaus1189 · 30th October 2020, 11:58

What is showing up already for rtx30 madvr related?

huhn · 30th October 2020, 12:09

there is one case with overblown HDR just chill for now.

edit: BTW. you complained about low YT quality right? there seems to be a major issue with the current AMD driver and web browser.
try this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRUrlZFty3A it looks horrific on my system if you load the same stream into let'S mpc-be it fine.
this is my last word about this in this topic if you want to discuss this in more detail feel free to do so in the driver thread.

Manni · 30th October 2020, 12:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Klaus1189

What is showing up already for rtx30 madvr related?

10bits support over HDMI, which is good news for those with a 40gb/s limited HDMI 2.1 TV set.

The 4K120 bug doesn't really concern madVR users, unless they use smooth motion at 4K I guess. The workaround seems to be to disable VRR and ALMM.

Some reported issues with HDR, but they have been very vague so I'm not sure what they are.

Klaus1189 · 30th October 2020, 12:24

If you know more please let me know on the driver thread. If there is a workaround or anything new to last recommended driver please let me also know.

Manni · 30th October 2020, 12:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Klaus1189

If you know more please let me know on the driver thread. If there is a workaround or anything new to last recommended driver please let me also know.

Nothing more than above at this stage.

I'll know more when I get my hands on a 3xxx series...

EDIT: Just managed to pre-order a Zotac 3090 Trinity with a delivery date of November 10... We'll see if that one will get cancelled like the EVGA one that never arrived...

toki · 30th October 2020, 13:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manni

Nothing more than above at this stage.

I'll know more when I get my hands on a 3xxx series...

EDIT: Just managed to pre-order a Zotac 3090 Trinity with a delivery date of November 10... We'll see if that one will get cancelled like the EVGA one that never arrived...

3090 so nice, lucky

JNW · 30th October 2020, 14:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by LordX2

Asmodian:

For smooth motion - does it double the rendering time since it is doubling the frame output?

Do you still have your display set to 23.976?

And does it have the dreaded 'soap opera' effect?

PS - I know beta 113 is not compatible with smooth motion - just asking for when this is fixed in future releases.

1. No (It will use more processing but not what your thinking)
2. Probably or a multiple of depending on content
3. No

It's not a interpolation feature and will not introduce a soap opera effect. Read this Wiki https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/MadVR_Expert_Guide

Congratulations on the the CEDIA award madshi. What a year. Well deserved.

29th October 2020, 21:34	#60481 \| Link
VBB Registered User Join Date: May 2016 Location: Long Beach, CA, USA Posts: 620	I can answer those questions, since I've used smooth motion for a long time (currently taking a break). SM blends frames, but it does not alter the motion, unlike interpolation. There is no soap opera effect. For SM to be effective, you'll want to set the frame rate as high as possible. Like As said, it's even better at 120Hz, but it's definitely fine at 60Hz. Nobody knows when SM will be fixed. Just use 112b for now. A note: SM is best used with OLEDs due to their inherent super fast response time. The slight blur SM creates helps with the sometimes jarring stutter of low frame rate content. Since you're using a projector, you might not gain anything from SM, except zero drops/repeats. As far as performance goes, SM does add a substantial hit, so you might have to adjust some of your settings. __________________ Henry \| LG OLED65C7P \| Denon AVR-X3500H \| ELAC Uni-Fi x7 \| ELAC Debut 2.0 SUB3030 x2 \| NVIDIA SHIELD TV Pro 2019 \| Plex

29th October 2020, 22:25	#60482 \| Link
Asmodian Registered User Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: San Jose, California Posts: 4,407	I entirely agree with VBB, but adding my own explanations too. It doesn't necessarily double the rendering time but it can increase the overhead for presenting frames a lot. On my system it outputs five times the number of frames (120 from 23.976). Smooth motion is nearly the last step so it does not increase the number of frames for most of madVR's processing but dithering is after smooth motion. Because of this it is very helpful to switch to ordered dithering when using smooth motion. I like ordered dithering on my OLEDs anyway but I liked ED more on plasma or LCD. Still, ordered dithering is very high quality while being much faster than error diffusion. I do not have my display set to 23.976 Hz, it is always at 120 Hz. At very low refresh rates smooth motion is bad and when refresh rate matches the frame rate smooth motion should not be used. The refresh rate needs to be above 2x the frame rate for smooth motion to output good quality. No dreaded soap opera effect. Have you seen the diagram in the third post of the link in my signature? It is helpful when trying to understand what is going on. __________________ madVR options explained

30th October 2020, 00:03	#60485 \| Link
VBB Registered User Join Date: May 2016 Location: Long Beach, CA, USA Posts: 620	The way I see it, at 100/120Hz the only benefit of SM is the zero frame drop/repeat. Everything goes into 100/119/120 evenly, so even pull-down is no longer needed for judder-free motion. I would set madVR to only switch between those three frequencies. Am I wrong? __________________ Henry \| LG OLED65C7P \| Denon AVR-X3500H \| ELAC Uni-Fi x7 \| ELAC Debut 2.0 SUB3030 x2 \| NVIDIA SHIELD TV Pro 2019 \| Plex

30th October 2020, 00:21	#60487 \| Link
VBB Registered User Join Date: May 2016 Location: Long Beach, CA, USA Posts: 620	A short and non-confrontational reply from huhn is really all I could ask for __________________ Henry \| LG OLED65C7P \| Denon AVR-X3500H \| ELAC Uni-Fi x7 \| ELAC Debut 2.0 SUB3030 x2 \| NVIDIA SHIELD TV Pro 2019 \| Plex

30th October 2020, 03:43	#60490 \| Link
Andy o Registered User Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 962	So that was a bust on the 3070 attempt. I've been using nvidia for a while (GTX 1650S) mainly because of auto HDR switching and G-Sync, but the former is working with AMD as well? Also with madVR's frame rate calibration? Since the new AMDs will have VRR I think I'll be okay with the 6800 if these issues are solved. __________________ MSI MAG X570 TOMAHAWK WIFI, Ryzen 5900x, RTX 3070, Win 10-64. Pioneer VSX-LX503, LG OLED65C9

29th October 2020, 23:02	#60483 \| Link
huhn Registered User Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 7,921	smooth motion only outputs about 48 different frames a sec at 120 HZ with a 23p/24p source a lot of frames which are identical(so it's doing nothing except for the first one) and 1 blended in between when it overlaps with he next frame. you can use MPC HC with statics and madVR using windowed old path to get the rough numbers. at 47 fps it'S only slowing rising. there is a "chance" for smooth to do nothing and it is not applied on the first source frame so the number is a little lower then the actual number presented. maybe worth testing if madVR is in this case more efficient with dithering because it is true not outputting more frames. roughly you are outputting double the frame rate when the display refreshrate is double or more.

30th October 2020, 00:14	#60486 \| Link
huhn Registered User Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 7,921	sounds good. makes frame interpolation impossible i see this as a bonus.

30th October 2020, 01:44	#60489 \| Link
huhn Registered User Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 7,921	i take the static information and the description from madshi into account to get to my results that doesn't mean i'm correct.

30th October 2020, 04:12	#60491 \| Link
SamuriHL Registered User Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 5,351	Don't get me started on trying to buy a 30x0 card. I've been after a 3080 since they came out so I can crank up some settings in a couple of my madvr profiles. I looked at the 3070 this morning but the situation hasn't improved with online retailers... Was able to add to cart but was gone before I could checkout. We've discussed it in the hardware thread. The AMD cards do look compelling. Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk __________________ HTPC: Windows 11, AMD 5900X, RTX 3080, Pioneer Elite VSX-LX303, LG G2 77" OLED

30th October 2020, 11:16	#60493 \| Link
huhn Registered User Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 7,921	they have on paper competing GPU it will take 3 more weeks before we know for sure and they get independently tested to confirm there claims and maybe even longer before we hear about issues with madVR there is something already showing up for 3000 series but as always stay calm.

30th October 2020, 11:58	#60494 \| Link
Klaus1189 Registered User Join Date: Feb 2015 Location: Bavaria Posts: 1,667	What is showing up already for rtx30 madvr related?

30th October 2020, 12:09	#60495 \| Link
huhn Registered User Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 7,921	there is one case with overblown HDR just chill for now. edit: BTW. you complained about low YT quality right? there seems to be a major issue with the current AMD driver and web browser. try this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRUrlZFty3A it looks horrific on my system if you load the same stream into let'S mpc-be it fine. this is my last word about this in this topic if you want to discuss this in more detail feel free to do so in the driver thread. Last edited by huhn; 30th October 2020 at 12:22.

30th October 2020, 12:24	#60497 \| Link
Klaus1189 Registered User Join Date: Feb 2015 Location: Bavaria Posts: 1,667	If you know more please let me know on the driver thread. If there is a workaround or anything new to last recommended driver please let me also know.

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