madVR - high quality video renderer (GPU assisted)

[LordX2]

Originally Posted by tp4tissue

do you have a colorimeter

question 2, can you buy one ?

No. And I wouldn't know what to do with it if I bought it.

PS - Congrats on that overclock on such an old cpu!

[tp4tissue]

Originally Posted by LordX2

No. And I wouldn't know what to do with it if I bought it.

PS - Congrats on that overclock on such an old cpu!

when you set the whole pipe to rgb full, does the shadow look crushed black or too bright grey.

[LordX2]

Originally Posted by tp4tissue

when you set the whole pipe to rgb full, does the shadow look crushed black or too bright grey.

Its too bright/grey - like its 'washed out'.

[LordX2]

Found a video to use for the banding/dithering test. It has some motion to it, so it made it really easy to detect changes for me.

http://aaa-computerrepair.com/zip/10...VC_10-bit).mp4

Using (and not using) the menu bar at the bottom, I was able to test all four states. 8bit with and without dithering, and 10bit with and without dithering. There were changes between each state, and they went in (what I would consider) the logical order.

8bit without dithering was the worst, very noticeable banding.

8bit with dithering fixed the banding a lot, but still noticeable areas.

10bit without dithering was a little better than 8bit with dithering.

10bit with dithering was the smoothest of all.

This would seem to indicate to me that 10bit is being taken advantage of on my setup, and that dithering is working with 10bit video.

Is this the right conclusion to draw with the above scenario?

[Asmodian]

Originally Posted by LordX2

This would seem to indicate to me that 10bit is being taken advantage of on my setup, and that dithering is working with 10bit video.

Is this the right conclusion to draw with the above scenario?

Yes, that does sound like the correct conclusion.

However, your results for 8 bit dithering and 10 bit with dithering should be basically the same. 8 bit with dithering shouldn't have more banding than 10 bit with dithering. Do you have the trade quality for performance option "don't use linear light for dithering" enabled? If yes try with it off.

Testing using that test file (a great file for HDR bit depth testing!) on my display I get the smoothest results using 8 bit with dithering. I think this OLED rounds anything above 8 bit to 8 bit when in PC mode.

Edit: If 10 bit looks the same or better use 10 bit, it is only when 10 bit is worse that you do not want to use it. The only reason I suggested using 8 bit was because you had worse black clipping with 10 bit but if it makes banding worse keep 10 bit.
Edit2: After doing more testing I am not sure what my TV is doing, it is not rounding to 8 bit. 10 bit has slightly worse banding than 8 bit but un-dithered 8 bit or 10 bit is much worse. It is irrelevant for you anyway.

[Asmodian]

Originally Posted by tp4tissue

Does it apply a transfer function to retarget ?

Yes, it uses a function to retarget if it does not have a native LUT for that target.

Originally Posted by tp4tissue

For example, the container is rec2020, the primary reported by the video is rec2020, does madvr do gamut compression by bending the axis, OR does it just send out the vanilla values along an assumed straight line towards the primaries.

It does do primary correction. When mapping to a larger gamut you get the linear saturation ramps from the source gamut, not the display's. No bending or rotation either.

I am not sure if madVR's simple math option clips or not. Depending on how it is done there can be some bending going on at the extremes when mapping to a smaller gamut, to avoid simple hard clipping. I expect the new HDR tone mapping does not do a simple hard clip while the SDR conversions are more likely to.

Originally Posted by tp4tissue

The thing that confuses me is that IF it doesn't bend the axis, then it MUST require a rec2020 lut no ? without which it would send colors towards the rec709 primaries or p3 primaries of the display device, and that'd just be wrong. red and blue might look pretty close, but the green and magenta would be pretty off.

Within the overlapping color ranges you can get a 1:1 color match with relatively simple equations. There are different methods for mapping the non-overlapping areas, but they can all be represented by equations too.

This does work really well in my experiance, assuming the display is calibrated. For BT.2020 -> DCI-P3 or BT.2020/DCI-P3 -> BT.709 it seems to work perfectly. Using pure math to map BT.709 to a almost DCI-P3 display usually comes out a bit desaturated, which isn't great since BT.709 is already a lot smaller than the native gamut. The issue is that most displays don't quite hit the DCI-P3 primaries, not that the math is wrong.

[bombadilio]

Originally Posted by Harumi

I would like to run 2 instances of madVR (2 seperate video players) if thats possible.

My use would be/

1st player MPC BE +madVR+SVP (higher MadVR settings)
2nd player (insert name here) + madVR + Dmitrirender (lower MadVR settings)

I wanted to test my videos with higher and lower madVR settings (separately attached to specific player), as SVP is less hardware demanding in comparison to Dmitrirender.

I did test JRiver creates seperate madVR instance-(good as settings are different), but cant add custom DirectShow filter (DmitriRender). On the other hand Potplayer accepts custom DirectShow filters but cant add seperate madVR instance as it gets the same settings as the MPC BE.

Thank you for help thanks:

Did you ever get this to work?

I just switched to MPC-BE64bit + Madvr + AviSynth + SVP.

I oddly cannot tell if my SVP profiles are loading. Is there a way I could verify this? When I use MPC-BE now SVP does not say anything is active. Spent the last 12 hrs trying to figure it out and could use help please

[Manni]

Originally Posted by LordX2

Found a video to use for the banding/dithering test. It has some motion to it, so it made it really easy to detect changes for me.

Link to the original article and source (your link triggers a "dangerous website" alert): https://www.projectorcentral.com/All...-Bit-Depth.htm

[huhn]

Y to RGB limited is lossless but this image still produces a ton of banding when doing that without dithering (using passthrough obviously).

something is not working correctly with it.

it's a good idea sadly it's HDR and the bitrate is very questionable.

[el Filou]

Originally Posted by Alexkral

The upscaling settings are not used in your config, try Bicubic60 to downscale, I doubt that you can tell the difference.

In that situation I would first try to lower the chroma upscaling quality to see if I can keep SSIM.

Originally Posted by Asmodian

Try enabling the trade quality for performance option "scale chroma separately, if it saves performance". In the right situation it can save a lot of performance, arguably without a quality hit (the output is slightly different but not necessarily lower quality).

This works only when chroma res = output def so for 4K->1080 OK, but not 1440 unfortunately.

[Alexkral]

Originally Posted by el Filou

In that situation I would first try to lower the chroma upscaling quality to see if I can keep SSIM

I'm a big fan of catrom (actually 60 is closer to the sweet spot to maximize sharpness without introducing ringing), in the past I did some comparisons with SSIM and the results were very image dependent. That's why I think that in this situation the most important thing is the chroma upscaling quality. Anyway, it's a matter of taste.

[Asmodian]

Originally Posted by el Filou

This works only when chroma res = output def so for 4K->1080 OK, but not 1440 unfortunately.

There are situations where it can scale chroma to 1440 while scaling 4K luma to 1440. Probably doesn't work with SSIM though.

[huhn]

works for 2160 to 1440p too. you just have to make sure the chroma scaler isn't a x2 algorithm even with SSIM. it will use the x2 algorithm if the target resolution is above ~1420p this is odd could be a bug but without performance measuring hard to tell.
if there is a luma < in the OSD it is working.

[tp4tissue]

Originally Posted by LordX2

This would seem to indicate to me that 10bit is being taken advantage of on my setup, and that dithering is working with 10bit video.

Is this the right conclusion to draw with the above scenario?

Congratulations, your projector does not suck.

as for the shadow bloat, does the base black become elevated when set to full rgb, or does the low-mid black elevate only.

So for example, if you just had a 0,0,0 background, is THAT also elevated on RGB full on the proj. If base black isn't elevated, it might just be the case that rgb full is causing the projector to emulate SRGB gamma, which has a brighter rampup near black.

[tp4tissue]

Originally Posted by Asmodian

For BT.2020 -> DCI-P3 or BT.2020/DCI-P3 -> BT.709 it seems to work perfectly. Using pure math to map BT.709 to a almost DCI-P3 display usually comes out a bit desaturated, which isn't great since BT.709 is already a lot smaller than the native gamut. The issue is that most displays don't quite hit the DCI-P3 primaries, not that the math is wrong.

Thx for the deets Asmodian.

Do you know if Madvr turns off its math-bending when using a rec2020 lut ,

For example, on the osd, if it says rec2020->dcip3 does that mean it's mathing ?

Because it says that regardless if i use a rec2020 lut or a p3 lut.

Is there another indicator to check what it's doing gamut wise.

[LordX2]

Originally Posted by Asmodian

If 10 bit looks the same or better use 10 bit, it is only when 10 bit is worse that you do not want to use it. The only reason I suggested using 8 bit was because you had worse black clipping with 10 bit but if it makes banding worse keep 10 bit.

1. Ok, so I tested 8bit vs 10bit with dithering enabled - they were both smooth, but the 10 bit was definitely smoother... went back and forth muuuuultiple times to make sure. So that is good! Obviously my PJ is processing 10bit. (also, the black levels are working fine now with my current settings over 10bit... don't know what I changed, but not complaining)

So I wanted to know WHY I had all the problems I did, and I had some posts answered on the PJ page on a different forum.

2. My PJ is limited to 13.5Gbps over its HDMI ports (vs 18Gbps). Stupid design, and one that has been bashed repeatedly (and of course fixed on the next release!).

3. All RGB content (or 444 full) is processed at 8bit on the PJ - which explains why having FULL settings through the chain (video card, madvr, and PJ) never worked right. The PJ was downgrading the 10bit signal to 8bit, and gave it that washed out look. So at least I know WHY that was happening now.

4. However, the PJ CAN process 10bit limited (4:2:0) signals up to 30Hz.

5. Even though my Nvidia is set to RGB FULL, Having MadVR set to Limited must be putting out the 10bit 4:2:0 video stream directly to the PJ in Fullscreen windowed mode - which would explain why the 10bit is being processed correctly by the PJ.

So I think I finally have a handle on why and what is actually happening. I think...

6. Final question though - from the conversation previously about color spaces and gamut etc - since my PJ is getting the full 10bit signal (madvr is doing the tone mapping), regardless of whether it is reporting bt.709 color space, and that my windows system is in SDR - am I theoretically getting all the colors that I possibly can to my PJ?

The picture looks astounding, so I don't care either way - just curious.

[tp4tissue]

what's the projector model again?

[Asmodian]

Originally Posted by tp4tissue

For example, on the osd, if it says rec2020->dcip3 does that mean it's mathing ?

Isn't that info about the source? I believe that is telling you that the metadata indicates it is DCI-P3 range video encoded as BT.2020. In that case it simply clips everything outside DCI-P3 when using DCI-P3 output, or does nothing to it for BT.2020 output.

Originally Posted by LordX2

4. However, the PJ CAN process 10bit limited (4:2:0) signals up to 30Hz.

10 bit is usually not worth using 4:2:0, at least on displays I have tested (not projectors). Converting to 4:2:0 after madVR is bad. Do you know what 4:2:0 means? Limited range and 4:2:0 are completely independent things.

4:2:0 loses a lot of spatial resolution for the color detail. Dithering to 8 bit preserves a lot more precision than simply resizing all the color data to 1/4 the number of pixels.

Can you set the GPU to output 8 bit YCbCr 444?

Originally Posted by LordX2

5. Even though my Nvidia is set to RGB FULL, Having MadVR set to Limited must be putting out the 10bit 4:2:0 video stream directly to the PJ in Fullscreen windowed mode - which would explain why the 10bit is being processed correctly by the PJ.

No, madVR cannot do that.. When madVR outputs limited range it is outputting limited range RGB. The GPU must not be set to output full range 10 bit RGB, since the projector cannot accept that. Limited and full range video takes the same amount of HDMI bandwidth. What is the GPU outputting?

Originally Posted by LordX2

So I think I finally have a handle on why and what is actually happening. I think...

Your described config doesn't seem possible given the bandwidth limitations of your projector.

Originally Posted by LordX2

6. Final question though - from the conversation previously about color spaces and gamut etc - since my PJ is getting the full 10bit signal (madvr is doing the tone mapping), regardless of whether it is reporting bt.709 color space, and that my windows system is in SDR - am I theoretically getting all the colors that I possibly can to my PJ?

Let's see if I can help make sense of this for you.

The bit depth does not control what colors are available. It simply doesn't so don't think of it that way. You get the same color with 8 or 10 bit. Higher bit depth makes getting smooth gradients easier but it does not change the colors displayed.

The gamut is what controls the colors able to be displayed. With the display set to BT.709 it cannot display any colors outside BT.709. DCI-P3 is larger than BT.709 so there might be colors in DCI-P3 content your projector cannot display when set to BT.709. Most content doesn't use many colors near 100% saturation so with a good conversion almost all the colors will be the same as they would be if the display was set to DCI-P3 with video tone mapped to DCI-P3. It is only colors outside the gamut of the projector that will change.

Originally Posted by LordX2

The picture looks astounding, so I don't care either way - just curious.

I have thought this about a completely wrong image before. Don't stop yet.

I suspect you can figure out something even better with your current system.

[LordX2]

I also FORCED the PJ into Limited mode. Forgot to mention that.

I wonder if that is what is helping me here - since I noticed a gigantic improvement when I first made that switch on the projector.

Perhaps the PJ can process RGB in limited mode at 30hz or lower with 10bit.

I mean something is happening with 10bit since I am noticing a difference on the test video. If it were all 8bit, it would (should) look the same either way I tested it.

Since I love the picture now - I may just leave it alone.

But would it be worth it to try and set the PJ from BT.709 to DCI-P3 if it will let me? And see if that makes any difference?

Projector model is: VPL-VW285es - Sony

[tp4tissue]

it makes no sense that you'd Not buy a colorimeter on a $5000 projector.

Buy the colorimeter, then we'll know exactly what's going on. Get the i1studio it's only $150. Don't buy a datacolor probe, they're busted.

I also find it difficult to grasp that such a projector can't do RGB Full. It's probably doing it correctly. it's just the gamma tracking is different in that mode.


The P3 gamut is that projector's native gamut, if any setting puts it in rec709 mode, the projector is using its internal CMS to clamp the colors. This operates independently of 8bit/10bit.

8bit / 10bit is a mapping system, it is not the color space, you can have 2bit rec2020 colors, or 100bit rec709 colors.