Welcome to Doom9's Forum, THE in-place to be for everyone interested in DVD conversion. Before you start posting please read the forum rules. By posting to this forum you agree to abide by the rules. |
23rd November 2020, 05:26 | #60764 | Link |
Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 168
|
Found a video to use for the banding/dithering test. It has some motion to it, so it made it really easy to detect changes for me.
http://aaa-computerrepair.com/zip/10...VC_10-bit).mp4 Using (and not using) the menu bar at the bottom, I was able to test all four states. 8bit with and without dithering, and 10bit with and without dithering. There were changes between each state, and they went in (what I would consider) the logical order. 8bit without dithering was the worst, very noticeable banding. 8bit with dithering fixed the banding a lot, but still noticeable areas. 10bit without dithering was a little better than 8bit with dithering. 10bit with dithering was the smoothest of all. This would seem to indicate to me that 10bit is being taken advantage of on my setup, and that dithering is working with 10bit video. Is this the right conclusion to draw with the above scenario? |
23rd November 2020, 05:46 | #60765 | Link | |
Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: San Jose, California
Posts: 4,407
|
Quote:
However, your results for 8 bit dithering and 10 bit with dithering should be basically the same. 8 bit with dithering shouldn't have more banding than 10 bit with dithering. Do you have the trade quality for performance option "don't use linear light for dithering" enabled? If yes try with it off. Testing using that test file (a great file for HDR bit depth testing!) on my display I get the smoothest results using 8 bit with dithering. I think this OLED rounds anything above 8 bit to 8 bit when in PC mode. Edit: If 10 bit looks the same or better use 10 bit, it is only when 10 bit is worse that you do not want to use it. The only reason I suggested using 8 bit was because you had worse black clipping with 10 bit but if it makes banding worse keep 10 bit. Edit2: After doing more testing I am not sure what my TV is doing, it is not rounding to 8 bit. 10 bit has slightly worse banding than 8 bit but un-dithered 8 bit or 10 bit is much worse. It is irrelevant for you anyway.
__________________
madVR options explained Last edited by Asmodian; 23rd November 2020 at 09:05. |
|
23rd November 2020, 07:58 | #60766 | Link | ||
Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: San Jose, California
Posts: 4,407
|
Yes, it uses a function to retarget if it does not have a native LUT for that target.
Quote:
I am not sure if madVR's simple math option clips or not. Depending on how it is done there can be some bending going on at the extremes when mapping to a smaller gamut, to avoid simple hard clipping. I expect the new HDR tone mapping does not do a simple hard clip while the SDR conversions are more likely to. Quote:
This does work really well in my experiance, assuming the display is calibrated. For BT.2020 -> DCI-P3 or BT.2020/DCI-P3 -> BT.709 it seems to work perfectly. Using pure math to map BT.709 to a almost DCI-P3 display usually comes out a bit desaturated, which isn't great since BT.709 is already a lot smaller than the native gamut. The issue is that most displays don't quite hit the DCI-P3 primaries, not that the math is wrong.
__________________
madVR options explained |
||
23rd November 2020, 08:18 | #60767 | Link | |
Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 8
|
Quote:
I just switched to MPC-BE64bit + Madvr + AviSynth + SVP. I oddly cannot tell if my SVP profiles are loading. Is there a way I could verify this? When I use MPC-BE now SVP does not say anything is active. Spent the last 12 hrs trying to figure it out and could use help please |
|
23rd November 2020, 12:12 | #60768 | Link | |
Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 942
|
Quote:
__________________
Win11 Pro x64 b23H2 Ryzen 5950X@4.5Ghz 32Gb@3600 Zotac 3090 24Gb 551.33 madVR/LAV/jRiver/MyMovies/CMC Denon X8500HA>HD Fury VRRoom>TCL 55C805K |
|
23rd November 2020, 13:02 | #60769 | Link |
Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 7,923
|
Y to RGB limited is lossless but this image still produces a ton of banding when doing that without dithering (using passthrough obviously).
something is not working correctly with it. it's a good idea sadly it's HDR and the bitrate is very questionable. |
23rd November 2020, 18:11 | #60770 | Link | ||
Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 896
|
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
HTPC: Windows 10 22H2, MediaPortal 1, LAV Filters/ReClock/madVR. DVB-C TV, Panasonic GT60, Denon 2310, Core 2 Duo E7400 oc'd, GeForce 1050 Ti 536.40 |
||
23rd November 2020, 21:04 | #60771 | Link |
Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2018
Posts: 323
|
I'm a big fan of catrom (actually 60 is closer to the sweet spot to maximize sharpness without introducing ringing), in the past I did some comparisons with SSIM and the results were very image dependent. That's why I think that in this situation the most important thing is the chroma upscaling quality. Anyway, it's a matter of taste.
__________________
AviSynth AiUpscale |
23rd November 2020, 21:36 | #60772 | Link |
Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: San Jose, California
Posts: 4,407
|
There are situations where it can scale chroma to 1440 while scaling 4K luma to 1440. Probably doesn't work with SSIM though.
__________________
madVR options explained |
23rd November 2020, 22:52 | #60773 | Link |
Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 7,923
|
works for 2160 to 1440p too. you just have to make sure the chroma scaler isn't a x2 algorithm even with SSIM. it will use the x2 algorithm if the target resolution is above ~1420p this is odd could be a bug but without performance measuring hard to tell.
if there is a luma < in the OSD it is working. |
23rd November 2020, 23:00 | #60774 | Link | |
Registered User
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 710
|
Quote:
Congratulations, your projector does not suck. as for the shadow bloat, does the base black become elevated when set to full rgb, or does the low-mid black elevate only. So for example, if you just had a 0,0,0 background, is THAT also elevated on RGB full on the proj. If base black isn't elevated, it might just be the case that rgb full is causing the projector to emulate SRGB gamma, which has a brighter rampup near black.
__________________
Ghetto | 2500k 5Ghz Last edited by tp4tissue; 23rd November 2020 at 23:08. |
|
23rd November 2020, 23:06 | #60775 | Link | |
Registered User
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 710
|
Quote:
Do you know if Madvr turns off its math-bending when using a rec2020 lut , For example, on the osd, if it says rec2020->dcip3 does that mean it's mathing ? Because it says that regardless if i use a rec2020 lut or a p3 lut. Is there another indicator to check what it's doing gamut wise.
__________________
Ghetto | 2500k 5Ghz Last edited by tp4tissue; 23rd November 2020 at 23:09. |
|
23rd November 2020, 23:07 | #60776 | Link | |
Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 168
|
Quote:
So I wanted to know WHY I had all the problems I did, and I had some posts answered on the PJ page on a different forum. 2. My PJ is limited to 13.5Gbps over its HDMI ports (vs 18Gbps). Stupid design, and one that has been bashed repeatedly (and of course fixed on the next release!). 3. All RGB content (or 444 full) is processed at 8bit on the PJ - which explains why having FULL settings through the chain (video card, madvr, and PJ) never worked right. The PJ was downgrading the 10bit signal to 8bit, and gave it that washed out look. So at least I know WHY that was happening now. 4. However, the PJ CAN process 10bit limited (4:2:0) signals up to 30Hz. 5. Even though my Nvidia is set to RGB FULL, Having MadVR set to Limited must be putting out the 10bit 4:2:0 video stream directly to the PJ in Fullscreen windowed mode - which would explain why the 10bit is being processed correctly by the PJ. So I think I finally have a handle on why and what is actually happening. I think... 6. Final question though - from the conversation previously about color spaces and gamut etc - since my PJ is getting the full 10bit signal (madvr is doing the tone mapping), regardless of whether it is reporting bt.709 color space, and that my windows system is in SDR - am I theoretically getting all the colors that I possibly can to my PJ? The picture looks astounding, so I don't care either way - just curious. Last edited by LordX2; 23rd November 2020 at 23:09. |
|
23rd November 2020, 23:59 | #60778 | Link | ||||||
Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: San Jose, California
Posts: 4,407
|
Quote:
Quote:
4:2:0 loses a lot of spatial resolution for the color detail. Dithering to 8 bit preserves a lot more precision than simply resizing all the color data to 1/4 the number of pixels. Can you set the GPU to output 8 bit YCbCr 444? Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
The bit depth does not control what colors are available. It simply doesn't so don't think of it that way. You get the same color with 8 or 10 bit. Higher bit depth makes getting smooth gradients easier but it does not change the colors displayed. The gamut is what controls the colors able to be displayed. With the display set to BT.709 it cannot display any colors outside BT.709. DCI-P3 is larger than BT.709 so there might be colors in DCI-P3 content your projector cannot display when set to BT.709. Most content doesn't use many colors near 100% saturation so with a good conversion almost all the colors will be the same as they would be if the display was set to DCI-P3 with video tone mapped to DCI-P3. It is only colors outside the gamut of the projector that will change. Quote:
I suspect you can figure out something even better with your current system.
__________________
madVR options explained |
||||||
24th November 2020, 00:17 | #60779 | Link |
Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 168
|
I also FORCED the PJ into Limited mode. Forgot to mention that.
I wonder if that is what is helping me here - since I noticed a gigantic improvement when I first made that switch on the projector. Perhaps the PJ can process RGB in limited mode at 30hz or lower with 10bit. I mean something is happening with 10bit since I am noticing a difference on the test video. If it were all 8bit, it would (should) look the same either way I tested it. Since I love the picture now - I may just leave it alone. But would it be worth it to try and set the PJ from BT.709 to DCI-P3 if it will let me? And see if that makes any difference? Projector model is: VPL-VW285es - Sony Last edited by LordX2; 24th November 2020 at 00:19. |
24th November 2020, 01:15 | #60780 | Link |
Registered User
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 710
|
it makes no sense that you'd Not buy a colorimeter on a $5000 projector.
Buy the colorimeter, then we'll know exactly what's going on. Get the i1studio it's only $150. Don't buy a datacolor probe, they're busted. I also find it difficult to grasp that such a projector can't do RGB Full. It's probably doing it correctly. it's just the gamma tracking is different in that mode. The P3 gamut is that projector's native gamut, if any setting puts it in rec709 mode, the projector is using its internal CMS to clamp the colors. This operates independently of 8bit/10bit. 8bit / 10bit is a mapping system, it is not the color space, you can have 2bit rec2020 colors, or 100bit rec709 colors.
__________________
Ghetto | 2500k 5Ghz Last edited by tp4tissue; 24th November 2020 at 01:18. |
Tags |
direct compute, dithering, error diffusion, madvr, ngu, nnedi3, quality, renderer, scaling, uhd upscaling, upsampling |
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
Display Modes | |
|
|