MadVR in use with LG OLED Thread

[quietvoid]

Another day, another test build. I compared max2 up to max4.
For MMFR, max3 completely removes the hue in flames/lightning, max2 just brightens it slightly.

In my Spider-Man Far from Home sample however, it seems to increase the highlight brightness but the TV doesn't like it and clips slightly around the lightning bolt, not much detail loss though.
I wouldn't use anything above max2 to avoid clipping, but this might just be an issue since we're double tonemapping..

In the saturation test pattern, all above regular max become more saturated somehow.
No idea what that translates to, I can't see differences in normal content.

Anyways, sticking to good ol' max.

[QBhd]

I would rank "harm" (I know terrible choice of words) in order as:
1) Lost detail
2) Dimming of image
3) Changing intent of creator
4) Artifacts
5) Clipping

Passthrough will be heavy in 1&5, too much DTN will be heavy in 2, etc... I am just looking for a balance that has as little of the above as possible

QB

[aron7awol]

Originally Posted by QBhd

I would rank "harm" (I know terrible choice of words) in order as:
1) Lost detail
2) Dimming of image
3) Changing intent of creator
4) Artifacts
5) Clipping

Passthrough will be heavy in 1&5, too much DTN will be heavy in 2, etc... I am just looking for a balance that has as little of the above as possible

Yeah, 1 and 5 go hand in hand. 1000 DPL certainly has some of 1, as does any DPL over the LGs "clipping point" for the given metadata curve.

[quietvoid]

Originally Posted by chros

@quietvoid: since you created a HDR10+ parser, do you know a way to remove HDR10+ data from video streams (not DoVi)? (maybe yusesope has it in his tool over makemkv forum, but I never used it). I'm asking because of this.
Thanks

https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.p...77#post1932777

[aron7awol]

Re: EOTF tracking and rolloff/clipping points, is there a reason you guys don't upload DeviceControl templates with rolloff point of 100% to stop the TV from TMing and instead tell it to hard clip at peak luminance?

I can't say I've done it myself yet, but it's something I've been considering doing after I measure the actual peak luminance of my display.

[quietvoid]

I think that feature is only available to 2019+ models

[aron7awol]

Oh, sorry, I was thrown off because it showed 2017 and 2018 support for DeviceControl, but now I see that was not for the PQ Curve templates.

[quietvoid]

Not for the PQ curve upload.

[SamuriHL]

Yea, screw you C9 + owners! :P We'd LOVE that option but it's not available to us.

[aron7awol]

So madVR has the feature to detect hard coded black bars, and one of the options when it does is to shift the image to the bottom of the screen. I'm trying to accomplish the same thing but on videos that don't have hard coded black bars. Essentially I want to put both black bars on the top of the screen and slide the image to the bottom. Are you guys aware of any way to get madVR to do this or any player that can do this?

[Asmodian]

In processing -> zoom control there is a setting "always shift the image" that can be set to the top or bottom of the screen. This works even when there are no black bars.

If you actually want to avoid using a portion of your screen entirely, you can set the display type to a projector to access the "screen config" menu and define a visible screen area.

[QBhd]

Okay, so I was motivated to see what the Mehanik Clipping Patterns offered for us. And the results were odd...

So these are the two files that I mainly focused on:

http://qbstorrents.erebus.feralhosti...20clipping.rar

I disabled all the settings that I could in the Pixel Shaders and this was just a straight up DPL experiment.

Now for the oddness...

If I lowered DPL, more of the boxes were visible I even went down to 400 for shits and giggles, but even at 800 more of the 4000 nit file was visible. It was noticeably dimmer, especially when toggling to Passthrough. This seems to make sense... Then I went above 1000 DPL, again even as high as 2000... Instead of less boxes being visible and clipping kicking in, more boxes were again visible. More to the point, the clipping mark was roughly the same at 800 DPL as at 1200 DPL. So I dove deeper, 950 & 1050 both clipped roughly the same with more boxes being visible than 1000. So it seems that if you were to chart the last visible box vs the DPL it would be a "U" shaped chart with 1000 DPL the low point (roughly speaking).

So what does this all mean? Is it even more proof that 1000 DPL on the C8 is optimal? What is causing the clipping to shift UP when DPL goes above 1000? I know the TV's TM'ing will play a roll, but not this much...

Thoughts?

QB

Edit: oops links not doing what I wanted... I will fix now
Edit2: Fixed (I hope, LOL)

[aron7awol]

^^^ Those are the same exact two patterns that I use for this stuff, so I can speak to my observations on them as well.

I believe the reason you are seeing what you are seeing is that once you go >1000 DPL, and in turn >1000 maxCLL, you are seeing the result of the LG TMing changing from its 1000 nit curve to something in between that and its 4000 nit curve. We know on the 2019/2020 models it interpolates between the curves when maxCLL falls in between, and I would assume it does the same on earlier models even though we can't use the templates to modify the curves on those models.

So I don't think it means 1000 DPL is optimal, necessarily. I think you're saying it clips the most at 1000, right? If not losing highlight detail is truly your #1 priority, I'd say something <1000 is "optimal".

But the real issue is we need to be able to modify the metadata in order to not to be a slave to the display's TMing changing with DPL. Without that, 1000 DPL is just what results in the most clipping (and loss of highlight detail).

[aron7awol]

Originally Posted by Asmodian

In processing -> zoom control there is a setting "always shift the image" that can be set to the top or bottom of the screen. This works even when there are no black bars.

If you actually want to avoid using a portion of your screen entirely, you can set the display type to a projector to access the "screen config" menu and define a visible screen area.

Thanks. I know I tried that in the past (with the old Kodi DSPlayer only) and it didn't work, and maybe the player was why, so I'll certainly test it again!

Edit: Sure enough, it works in MPC. Thanks!

[QBhd]

As someone with an engineering background, when I see a clear inflection point it means something. And yes, until we are not slaves to DPL linked to metadata I will stick with what the data is trying to show us

Also, there is still less clipping than with Passthrough... And detail can also be retained with DTN (this test was just to find the DPL)

QB

[aron7awol]

Originally Posted by QBhd

As someone with an engineering background, when I see a clear inflection point it means something. And yes, until we are not slaves to DPL linked to metadata I will stick with what the data is trying to show us

It certainly does mean something, it's the point beyond which it starts changing to a totally different curve. You see more and more clipping as you set DPL beyond the display's capabilities, up to 1000 DPL, and then beyond that point the TV starts switching toward the 4000 nit tone curve and clipping is reduced.

If you want the most clipping possible from the TV without being able to override metadata, 1000 DPL gives you that. I was just pointing out that "the most clipping possible" flies in the face of your priority list, with #1 being not losing detail. But if you prefer the way 1000 looks with real content, perhaps your priority list is just not what you thought it was.

Originally Posted by QBhd

Also, there is still less clipping than with Passthrough...

Yes, this is true, but there is still more clipping with 1000 DPL than a lower DPL in your testing, right?

Originally Posted by QBhd

And detail can also be retained with DTN (this test was just to find the DPL)

More detail can be retained with DTN, yes. And yet, still, if you compare 1000 DPL and a lower DPL with the same target, you will still find there is even more detail (due to less/no clipping) with the lower DPL. This will always be the case, because if DPL is set to something exceeding the actual peak nits of the display, madVR will send pixels that exceed and will be clipped by the display.

Again, I'm not trying to tell you what you prefer and what you don't prefer, just pointing out differences. If you prefer the overall compromise of 1000 DPL best, with its balance of some clipping and overall picture brightness, I can totally relate. I really like the way it looks as well.

[QBhd]

You're preaching to the choir. More detail (i.e. less clipping with this particular test) can be attained in two ways. Lowering peak brightness or increasing peak brightness... All I am saying is the balance lies in the middle and this test is very easy to find that DPL +/- 50 nits. 1000 is a nice round number which makes some sense all by itself... And the flashing box at 860 (on the pattern) is so incredibly faint for both 1050 & 950 (DPL) that narrowing it down further would be difficult.

QB

[aron7awol]

Originally Posted by QBhd

You're preaching to the choir. More detail (i.e. less clipping with this particular test) can be attained in two ways. Lowering peak brightness or increasing peak brightness... All I am saying is the balance lies in the middle and this test is very easy to find that DPL +/- 50 nits. 1000 is a nice round number which makes some sense all by itself... And the flashing box at 860 (on the pattern) is so incredibly faint for both 1050 & 950 (DPL) that narrowing it down further would be difficult.

I'm just not sure what you are actually trying to balance or narrow down between 1050 and 950?

If you're trying to find the point with the most clipping, that's 1000. But I thought you didn't want to clip and lose detail, which is why I find it strange that you're honing in on the point that clips the most. And really, there's nothing to hone in on anyway, we know that's 1000.

[chros]

OFF:

Originally Posted by quietvoid

https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.p...77#post1932777

Thank You! It works like a charm! (You see there are people who don't understand what the problem is / you want to achieve and just complaining non-stop )
What popped into my mind is - if you will have time / in the mood -:
- you could incorporate this into the hdr10+ parser project
-- by setting a flag that allows stripping the metadata while making a backup of it in one go
-- allowing to rewrite the original hdr10+ file with the saved metadata

ON:
And all this because bloody LG's magenta/cyan issue with HDR10 content!!! It just drives me nuts, right @jk82?!

Btw, @aron7awol, would you mind testing the cyan/magenta issue on your CX as well? But beware, once you've seen this (if it exists), you won't be able to unsee it anymore! Thanks

[chros]

Originally Posted by aron7awol

Are you guys aware of any way to get madVR to do this or any player that can do this?

What do you need this for?

Originally Posted by QBhd

see what the Mehanik Clipping Patterns offered for us. And the results were odd...

Now for the oddness...

Thoughts?

Thanks, something is indeed strange, the question is why.

1. here, both with the 1000 and 4000 file (both in nomarl and PC mode):
- a bit more visible the last box with 800 DPL than as with 700DPL! (Remember, that's what I saw with the SM horses scene in the snow)
- at 650 and 840 (!) boxes starts to disappear at the high end
- between 700 and 820 all the boxes appear, although the last box is pretty faint with 700

So, what does this mean? Is it because of the double tonemapping?!
It seems that the optimal settings for me are between 740-820, but that is way higher (40-120 nits) that I measured as a 1% window peak.

2. maybe it's not important for us, but I think for determining the peak DPL these files are not good, because they result in double tonemapping (unless you use 100 and 4000 DPL for the corresponding files).
- that's what I meant when I mentioned Vincent's video, that we would need the right maxCLL file with the set DPL in madvr, e.g.:
-- 800 maxCLL file for 800 DPL, 850 maxCLL file for 850 DPL, etc