madVR - high quality video renderer (GPU assisted)

[DMU]

Recently I noticed in the OS HDR mode the metadata became correct.
Pic

[tp4tissue]

Originally Posted by SirMaster

Yeah, FRC is a type a dithering, but I would reckon madVR's error-diffusion dithering is higher quality than your display's FRC algorithm.

I thought madvr's error diffusion dithering remains on even if you set pipeline to 10 bit.

On all the Roku platform TVs I've tested, on Test patterns, 10bit @ 23.976hz always produced smoother gradient than 8bit modes. <setting is 12bit mode on NVpanel, 10bit dx11 surface in madvr>

My samsung Tv won't support 10bit 444 from PC. no go here.

I've got an older 10bit 24" IPS u2410 which also has smoother gradient when set to 10bit mode.

[el Filou]

Originally Posted by DMU

Recently I noticed in the OS HDR mode the metadata became correct.
Pic

Can you post this in the driver info thread: https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=176013&page=98 ?

Originally Posted by cosmitz

Did a fair bit of research when i set this all up so i'm sure it was for a good reason but i can't tell you what that was for the life of me. Lowered it down to 12. W7, yes, no aero and desktop compositing off, but tried turning all of that on and setting it up from madVR and it still defaults to D3D9.

Sorry, I've tried everything, switching to Exclusive, D3D9 presentation, and increasing my present queue up to 16, but I can't reproduce this. Exclusive mode works quite differently in Win7 though, even with fullscreen optimisations disabled in Win10, and I don't have Win7 system to test on.
Did you try fiddling with the GPU settings? Exclusive mode is like games, so some GPU settings may influence it. Some stuff like double/triple buffering, enhanced/fast sync, that kind of stuff? I don't game much so don't know about all of them. Maybe do a system restore checkpoint to go back to and then try resetting the graphics driver settings?

[Asmodian]

Originally Posted by tp4tissue

I thought madvr's error diffusion dithering remains on even if you set pipeline to 10 bit.

Of course dithering stays on at 10 bit, but if you then dither again to 8 bit you have double dithering (higher noise) and the quality of the dithering is almost entirely due to the second step.

Originally Posted by tp4tissue

On all the Roku platform TVs I've tested, on Test patterns, 10bit @ 23.976hz always produced smoother gradient than 8bit modes. <setting is 12bit mode on NVpanel, 10bit dx11 surface in madvr>

My samsung Tv won't support 10bit 444 from PC. no go here.

I've got an older 10bit 24" IPS u2410 which also has smoother gradient when set to 10bit mode.

Are you saying madVR does not have smooth gradients in 8 bit? What about with ordered dithering (the smoothest option)? Your display can convert from 10 bit to 8 bit internally with dithering that is smoother than madVR's? That does not sound right to me, you should have smooth gradients from madVR all the way down to 4 bit. Gradients normally get nosier as bit depth decreases, not less smooth.
Make sure linear light dithering is enabled.

[cosmitz]

Originally Posted by el Filou

Did you try fiddling with the GPU settings? Exclusive mode is like games, so some GPU settings may influence it. Some stuff like double/triple buffering, enhanced/fast sync, that kind of stuff? I don't game much so don't know about all of them. Maybe do a system restore checkpoint to go back to and then try resetting the graphics driver settings?

There shouldn't be any conflicts, no triple buffering, vsync app-based, no adaptive sync, maximum performance, and the issue has been there for relatively forever, not even sure i can trace it to anything changed in particular.

[tp4tissue]

Originally Posted by Asmodian

Are you saying madVR does not have smooth gradients in 8 bit? What about with ordered dithering (the smoothest option)? Your display can convert from 10 bit to 8 bit internally with dithering that is smoother than madVR's? That does not sound right to me, you should have smooth gradients from madVR all the way down to 4 bit. Gradients normally get nosier as bit depth decreases, not less smooth.
Make sure linear light dithering is enabled.

I tested several different conditions with dithering on and off. Using a 10bit gradient test video.

Mode 1
Madvr Dithering set off. All 8 bit pipe set (Nvidia+Madvr), the test pattern 10bit gradient portion across 3840 pixels is choppy 8bit stripes.

M2
Madvr Dithering set off. 12bit NV, 10bit Madvr, 4K@23.976hz the test pattern looked smooth. Slight segmentation visible

M3
Dithering on (erDiff). 8 bit pipe set (Nvidia+Madvr), the gradient IS SMOOTH, however. near the dark tones, I can still see slight segmentation, but the edges are softer. Vs M2, It's smoother than M2, so Madvr's dithering is indeed quite good.

M4
Dithering on (erDiff). 12bit NV, 10bit Madvr, 4K@23.976hz, I can just barely make out the segmentation.


In M4, shadow detail, near black transitions are much better.

I noticed the film grain also looked more pronounced, I can't explain this as I would've thought the dithering would kill that off.

[mytbyte]

I can see it's all about bits around here. So I'll jump right in.

I got myself a Lenovo d32q-20 monitor with 10 bit panel (8bit+frc). However, I'm not offered 10 bit color depth from the graphics card, neither RX 580's Radeon Software nor GTX960 Nvidia Panel. However, again, when I play 10 bit gradient test (both mp4 or TIF) through MadVR, I get very smooth gradation in D3D11 full screen on RX 580 (both windowed and exclusive) with MadVR's dithering off, while I do see striping when playback is not fullscreen. Does that mean that 10 bit pipeline is somehow passed through to the monitor avoiding the windows bit depth settings or there is some hardware dithering down to 8 bit by the GPU. I vaguely remember there was some talk about AMD doing the dithering by itself. I'm yet to test the GTX960 but some thoughts on the matter be nice in the meantime.

By the way, did Madshi really abandon MadVR? What's he doing now, some hardware implementation of it?

[tp4tissue]

In non-fullscreen mode, it goes to the 8 bit pipe. for example when you pop the menu up, or when you right click.

Hit Ctrl J, and you can see it go in and out on the top left indicator. This has nothing to do with AMD.

AMD's advantage is it does dithering when 10bit is enabled, which means it will be a bit smoother than nvidia. This is especially true if you have a Color correction gamma table loaded. AMD will also do dithering in 8-bit mode, if you have a table loaded.

But this is not useful for Madvr, because if you have a colorimeter, madvr can take care of the entire color pipe more reliably through its 3DLUT color correction support.

[mytbyte]

@tp4tissue: I must admit I'm not sure I can follow you about the Gamma Correction color table but I do have a 3D LUT loaded that I had created with DisplayCAL. Gamma table = 1D LUT?

I have just introduced "DP_DisableDither=1" value to the Windows registry's AMD driver section and I now have banding/striping in fullscreen mode as well...so it was not a full 10-bit pipeline file-to-monitor after all but AMD's default dithering. Why the hell this monitor has 10 bit panel when it can't take a 10 bit signal?

[tp4tissue]

/headscratch

What colorimeter are you using for madvr's 3dlut.

So nothing's changed from before EXCEPT the DP_disabledither ? What are the madvr settings you're testing with.

[mytbyte]

Originally Posted by tp4tissue

/headscratch

What colorimeter are you using for madvr's 3dlut.

So nothing's changed from before EXCEPT the DP_disabledither ? What are the madvr settings you're testing with.

X-rite Colormunki.

What specific MadVR settings would you like to know? The monitor properties is set to "10 bit or higher", "enable automatic fullscreen exclusive mode" (though it's equally smooth with windowed fullscreen), D3D11 for presentation, no dithering. Seems like AMD dithering activates in full screen only.

[tp4tissue]

Originally Posted by mytbyte

X-rite Colormunki.

What specific MadVR settings would you like to know? The monitor properties is set to "10 bit or higher", "enable automatic fullscreen exclusive mode" (though it's equally smooth with windowed fullscreen), D3D11 for presentation, no dithering. Seems like AMD dithering activates in full screen only.

It may be the case that madvr's 10bit pipe requires that amd dithering bit to exist, or amd's own pipe requires it..

We need another app which supports 10 bit pipe to test this. I don't think amd works with 10bit opengl on photoshop.

hrrrm...

[mytbyte]

Originally Posted by tp4tissue

It may be the case that madvr's 10bit pipe requires that amd dithering bit to exist, or amd's own pipe requires it..

We need another app which supports 10 bit pipe to test this. I don't think amd works with 10bit opengl on photoshop.

hrrrm...

I think I have tested quite extensively now to determine with certainty that the smooth gradient is the result of AMD's own dithering from 10 to 8 bit and not some "phantom" 10 bit pipeline to the monitor that defies the laws of physics. The banding observed with GTX 960 in fullscreen mode further proves that the monitor's input only receives 8 bit color depth and Nvidia doesn't dither 10 -bit to 8-bit.

You are right - even if the monitor were truly 10-bit input-to-output, I wouldn't be able to achieve 10-bit with AMD consumer GPU. And the GTX 960 (Maxwell, prior to Pascal) is exempt from new Nvidia's Studio driver's ability to make use of 10 bit OpenGL used in most productivity apps.

[VBB]

Just to add to this: Nvidia drivers do not dither when using RGB full. They dither with RGB limited and YCbCr.

[mytbyte]

Originally Posted by VBB

Just to add to this: Nvidia drivers do not dither when using RGB full. They dither with RGB limited and YCbCr.

You are very right, sir. Just confirmed this.

And now another thing: I just updated the GTX960 machine to Windows 2004 build and 10-bit and 12-bit options magically appeared, but for HDMI YCbCr 4:2:2 only (DP still 8 bit only). I can't absolutely swear it wasn't there before but I believe I had tried everything and don't believe I missed it.

AMD machine didn't get the 2004 update and is still oblivious to 10 bit in any form.

[QBhd]

Just a heads up and an FYI... but CRU will also limit output to 8-bit only.

Edit:

Actually I went back and read my post about custom resolutions (https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.p...31#post1895131) and I guess it would be the lack of HDMI standard timings that could be limiting output to 8-bit...

So I will change my above statement slightly... The EDID can have a big role to play in the bitdepth of the output.

EDIT 2:

@mytbyte, maybe you can go backwards from what I was attempting back then and add those standard timings back in, if they are missing from your EDID...

QB

[SirSwede]

I am looking to get a Lenovo Yoga S740 15, with a GeForce GTX 1650 with Max-Q graphics card.

I was wondering what this card is capable of, using madVR and MPC-HC, scaling 480p and 720p to it's own 1080p screen?

Will I get any decent quality from this material or shouldn't I be buying a machine with this card?

Thank you in advance!

[clsid]

Yes, that card will work fine.

[mytbyte]

Originally Posted by QBhd

Just a heads up and an FYI... but CRU will also limit output to 8-bit only.

Edit:

Actually I went back and read my post about custom resolutions (https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.p...31#post1895131) and I guess it would be the lack of HDMI standard timings that could be limiting output to 8-bit...

So I will change my above statement slightly... The EDID can have a big role to play in the bitdepth of the output.

EDIT 2:

@mytbyte, maybe you can go backwards from what I was attempting back then and add those standard timings back in, if they are missing from your EDID...

QB

Bless you and this forum. In CRU, I just added 30-bit and 36-bit under HDMI support in the Extensions block. Works for both HDMI and DP.

What would be the freaking reason why the monitor doesn't advertise 10 and 12 bit support in EDID?

[chros]

Maybe it's only 8bit? Can you link where you see it's 10bit? And some panel Ids as well e.g. from madvr.