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29th November 2020, 03:05 | #60841 | Link | |||
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The DCI-P3 mode is a bit wonky. I am not sure reds change much. It looks like it is stretching the mids in DCI-P3 rather than clamping the max in BT.709: Quote:
Edit: I would agree with your advice if we didn't have any data on the display, it is better to be over saturated instead of undersaturated and using the native gamut is preferred. However, in this case I think the BT.709 mode is the better option for madVR, at least without a colorimeter to create a 3DLUT. I also agree that a colorimeter is much preferred, though even with one I might end up keeping that projector in BT.709 mode, its primaries look closer to BT.709.
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madVR options explained Last edited by Asmodian; 29th November 2020 at 08:34. |
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29th November 2020, 04:22 | #60842 | Link | |
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Last edited by nsnhd; 29th November 2020 at 04:26. |
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29th November 2020, 05:29 | #60843 | Link |
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Hey RXP (and anyone else using a Harmony remote), what Harmony model are you using? I think I need a remote to rule them all, but it must also be able to map keyboard keys (eg. Control+J). I'd like to get something that doesn't need an IR for the HTPC
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29th November 2020, 09:16 | #60844 | Link | |
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oh the joys of owning a HTPC.
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29th November 2020, 11:17 | #60846 | Link |
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I understand why you say that....hdmi should be binary - it works or not...but, there is difference, so it's a new one on me. Replaced the cable between the pc and the amp, and black levels are now as they should be - it's not a big difference, but its noticeable on the test clips.
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LG OLED55BX6LB, Zidoo Z1000 Pro, Yamaha RX-A3060, Polk Signature Fronts & Centre, Wharfedale D300 Atmos surrounds, Polk Signature HTS 10 Sub, DSPeaker Antimode 8033 Cinema Last edited by oldpainlesskodi; 29th November 2020 at 11:19. |
29th November 2020, 16:15 | #60850 | Link | |
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The goal of colorimetry isn't accurate color persay, it's good LOOKING colors. Looking at those charts, the lower saturations look pretty close on both 709 and p3. I'm still voting for p3. it's pretty close. I also have great doubt that Lx2's output levels are setup properly. He's very likely fallen into the trap of gamma crush which <looks perceptually> more contrasty on some setups. Kind of like people who intentionally set their HDMI levels wrong on their Oleds.
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Ghetto | 2500k 5Ghz Last edited by tp4tissue; 29th November 2020 at 16:19. |
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29th November 2020, 21:15 | #60851 | Link |
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Not sure if you meant this as a comment on what I said the other day, but just to clear things up: The reason I intentionally mismatch the black levels on my OLED is that I use RGB full for the output and limited in madVR. Since I don't use my HTPC for anything other than media playback, setting the TV to limited doesn't hurt anything. It just saves one conversion/expansion, whether that's beneficial or not.
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30th November 2020, 01:42 | #60852 | Link | |
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It doesn't even get significantly more saturated reds or oranges, look at the data, the saturation drops off as it nears 100% DCI-P3. The separation between saturation steps drops non-linearly, it is compressing the top of the range to allow the higher saturations in the lower range. Cyan looks especially bad, with the 80% and 100% saturation steps landing on top of each other. This means you lose even more detail in bright saturated colors. Surly you do not prefer messing up skin tones and most other colors so you can very slightly increase the saturation of the brightest reds and oranges in an incorrect manner? madVR will compress the DCI-P3 range into BT.709, with the knee roll off near 100% required by such a conversion. Sending this data to the projector in its DCI-P3 mode results in all the colors the projector could have accurately represented being oversaturated. The data near 100% BT.709 might have represented more saturated colors but the range has been compressed to max out at BT.709 so we don't know anymore. The projector further compresses this range, because its DCI-P3 mode has a similar non-linear range compression built into it, so it ends up oversaturating colors meant to be near 100% BT.709 while still under saturating near 100% DCI-P3. The result is all colors being wrong, and a severe loss of dynamic range at saturations nearing 100% BT.709. That projector simply cannot display ferrari Red and lamborghini orange so don't sacrifice skin tones chasing the impossible.
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madVR options explained |
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30th November 2020, 05:10 | #60853 | Link | |
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WITHOUT a meter, it's hard for us on the other side of the internet to make that call for lx2, Those of us who have seen enough calibrated gamma ramps know what to look for, this isn't the case for everyone else just winging it.
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30th November 2020, 05:20 | #60854 | Link | |
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If those measurements are accurate, then it's basically the saturation rendering intent as the default projector's mapping. I wouldn't call that more inaccurate. As for how much more saturated, it's not just about how much further, it's also how / where the curves begin, Assuming Sony is doing their job correctly, we can trust that their secret sauce is the better default, because WE have no other reference point for the projector's other settings. maybe the review got it wrong, maybe they have a setting enabled which makes that yellow wonky, we don't know. They could've gotten a bum projector unit. Having calibrated so many panels, I'm sure you know as well Every single one is different, no 2 alike, and they're almost all off in some way. I don't think he will be sacrificing skin tones. Only very saturated skin tones will take on a small excess of color, it's nothing like the Orange people we had in 2006 tvs. As for loss of dynamic range, I'm assuming Sony, the people who invented half this stuff DID what they did for a reason. pushing saturation over perceptual intent is probably an overall better presentation as tested with their focus groups.
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30th November 2020, 05:48 | #60855 | Link |
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I know you're a major advocate of using meters and LUTs, but there are definitely things you can just "wing" without either. Things like contrast, brightness, and sharpness are easily set correctly with the right test patterns. A level mismatch is therefore easy to spot, if you know what to look for. The average enthusiast doesn't absolutely need to know if the saturation tracks evenly, of if the gamma is spot on. In fact, even with a meter, you can't know for sure with HDR and Dolby Vision, especially with the incredibly unstable OLEDs. Like Asmodian suggested, if you don't have accurate numbers for your particular hardware, you go by the data that's out there, and you help madVR make the right decisions by giving it as much info as you can. LUTs are not working properly in the latest build, for example, so it's even more important to use the correct gamut and gamma.
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30th November 2020, 06:14 | #60856 | Link |
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well a 3D LUT can clearly not increass the brightness or the CR either fix the sharpness.
there are some sharpening patterns that only work with a good gamma calibration but that's it. levels... a meter is one of the last things i would use to fix these. |
30th November 2020, 15:27 | #60857 | Link | |
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Did you try switching back to the old cable now that the levels are correct to be sure? Switching several times between them? If you're happy now it's fine, but erroneously thinking it was the cable means there may be a hidden firmware/software issue in your devices that hasn't been resolved.How can you say something like this when you're one of the most vocal supporters of meters? The only goal is accuracy, good looking colors is just a result of accuracy.
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30th November 2020, 16:07 | #60858 | Link |
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Yes, have retested by swapping cables again and and same results - like it said, it's not changing levels per se, just seems to be clipping on the blacks ever so slightly. Anyway, could be just something weird with my setup, so as long as I am happy, as they say, it's gooood.
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LG OLED55BX6LB, Zidoo Z1000 Pro, Yamaha RX-A3060, Polk Signature Fronts & Centre, Wharfedale D300 Atmos surrounds, Polk Signature HTS 10 Sub, DSPeaker Antimode 8033 Cinema Last edited by oldpainlesskodi; 30th November 2020 at 16:15. |
30th November 2020, 16:38 | #60859 | Link |
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Maybe he's wrong with other things but he's right with this one.
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30th November 2020, 19:02 | #60860 | Link |
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How do you scientifically define 'looking good' when it comes to image reproduction fidelity?
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direct compute, dithering, error diffusion, madvr, ngu, nnedi3, quality, renderer, scaling, uhd upscaling, upsampling |
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