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23rd November 2019, 09:02 | #57841 | Link | |
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Where did you get the information about the tv internally doing Ycbcr 422? I thought in Windows you always want to use rgb because windows will just convert ycbcr to rgb? Also, why is my Apple TV able to do 10 bit without banding, but my windows pc can only send it 8 bit dithered or else I get banding? Finally, why would I set madvr to full if I’m using limited and have my TV set to low hdmi black level? I’ve seen a lot of conflicting information out there. It’s hard to know what to believe. |
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23rd November 2019, 11:09 | #57842 | Link | |||
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Windows will always render in 8 bit RGB but if you set the GPU to YCbCr it converts everything to YCbCr. madVR always outputs RGB too. Quote:
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The reason madVR has a setting for limited range is because if you only care about madVR and don't mind if everything else in Windows is wrong you can set madVR to limited and the GPU to full range. This results in the same image but without the GPU converting ranges. I care about everything else too, and the drivers still need to convert the RGB to YCbCr anyway, so I use limited range in the GPU and full in madVR. Also, what is ideal in principle and what is ideal in real life with an LG 2019 OLED is not the same thing.
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23rd November 2019, 11:43 | #57843 | Link | |
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madVR - high quality video renderer (GPU assisted)
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I don’t think you can get wide color gamut from a console or Apple TV without sending the tv 10 bit because they don’t do dithering. If Windows is converting ycbcr to rgb and madvr only outputs rgb....Why not just use rgb 8 bit limited instead of ycbcr 422? Last edited by tyguy; 23rd November 2019 at 11:47. |
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23rd November 2019, 12:06 | #57844 | Link |
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Because the LG's processing of RGB input is of lower quality.
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HTPC: Windows 10 22H2, MediaPortal 1, LAV Filters/ReClock/madVR. DVB-C TV, Panasonic GT60, Denon 2310, Core 2 Duo E7400 oc'd, GeForce 1050 Ti 536.40 |
23rd November 2019, 13:32 | #57845 | Link |
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@Asmodian
And the output at 60Hz@RGB@PCMode does not solve the issue's on LG OLED?
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R3 3200G / Vega8 / Samsung UE40NU7100 Win11Pro 21H2 / 4K RGB 59Hz / AMD last driver MPC-HC 1.9.17 / madVR 0.92.17 / FSW / SM / 8bit Last edited by DMU; 23rd November 2019 at 13:38. |
23rd November 2019, 16:42 | #57846 | Link |
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hi, this issue with LG OLEDS, its quite confusing,, there is a lot to take on here and some conflicting information to what ive been given in the past. Firstl, does it extend to older models, i have gen 1.0 EF950v, i've never noticed any banding to be honest, my current setup is as follows: HDMI 1 selected, lleft it named HDMI 1 Expert 1 profile set to HIGH colour space AMD RX 580 running at 4:4:4 FULL RGB set to 8 bit in graphica settings MADVR set to 0-255 everything looks fine to me, however I do have an issue if I use the actual "PC" HDMI input setting, SDR is fine but no matter what I do HDR is massively washed out and gamma is all messed up, nothing i do corrects this, I dont use PC mode anyway though as I use a tiny bit of smooth motion which greatly improves bright panning shots without any artefact or soap opera effects. Are you suggesting I should be runniing my panel in PC mode and at YBCR limted mode, what should I actually see on that chroma res pattern, I see 442 clearly but I can also see 444 albeit fiently. I dont see any banding in either of those movies, gradients and pretty smooth.
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LG OLED EF950-YAM RX-V685-RYZEN 3600 - 16GBRAM - WIN10 RX 5700 - https://www.videohelp.com/software/madVR/old-versions |
23rd November 2019, 17:38 | #57847 | Link |
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Anamorphic stretch in madvr
I would like to hear from madvr users with a projector and an anamorphic lens.
I just bought such a lens and when I enable the anamorphic option in madvr (4/3 vertical stretch in my case) the rendering time goes up quite a lot, increasing from 36ms average to 55+ms average after the stretch... Of course, that makes my 4K HDR 24p movie unwatchable The only way I gan get the rendering time back to below 40ms is by disabling completely any HDR processing in madvr, but that deteriorates the projected image a lot, of course. Decreasing luma and chroma upsampling quality by a lot is not enough. Decreasing dithering quality is not enough. Enabling every "trade quality for performance" option over all that that is not enough... My GPU is a GTX 1070. I do not mind upgrading it to a RTX 2080 if this is what I will need. Is there any anamorphic lens user around here? what do you observe when enabling this option? Any RTX 2080 user can help me by observing the difference in rendering time between no stretch and anamorphic stretch enabled in madvr. Any input is welcome! Thank you. |
23rd November 2019, 22:19 | #57848 | Link | ||
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The GPU driver is converting the RGB from both Windows and madVR to YCbCr. Do NOT use YCbCr 422! That would be subsampling the chroma in the GPU driver instead of the TV. If you are asking why the TV uses YCbCr 422 internally it is because TV manufactures are too cheap to get decent video processing chips. YCbCr 422 only takes 2/3 of the bandwidth of YCbCr 444 so they do not need as capable of hardware. In the Nvidia drivers I cannot set limited range RGB anymore so I did not test limited range RGB (that isn't really a standard either). Better to use YCbCr as always limited and RGB as always full range. The TV is expecting YCbCr limited range input because that is what Apple TV, bluray players, etc. will send it. LG got it working reasonably well for that but they seem to not care about the quality of full range RGB input. The refresh rate does not change the banding with RGB input in PC/Game mode in anyway but it does solve the issue with judder with any non-60Hz input while in PC mode. I always use 60 Hz with smooth motion now. Once in PC mode (so we get full resolution color) these TVs are pretty finicky and only seem to handle 8 bit YCbCr 444 limited range 60 Hz input well.
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23rd November 2019, 22:31 | #57849 | Link | |
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But it isn't that hard to decide what to do (coding it is another issue), simply wait 0.5 ms and then present the frame. I probably cannot tell if a frame is 0.5 ms early or late anyway and the even smaller inaccuracies due to Windows scheduling are even less important. As long as the player is presenting the frames close to when it should audio sync is a non-issue. If this would be better than smooth motion at 60 Hz I don't know, I am pretty happy with smooth motion already so I am not sure it is worth the effort. However, as it is now I need to manually turn off VRR when I switch from gaming to watching video. Nothing I said applies if you let the TV subsample chroma (e.g. do not use the PC HDMI setting). Also, use the banding test patterns to judge banding. I do not see obvious banding with normal content except very rarely. I also don't know about models that old, I have only tested the C7 and C9 myself. HDR tone mapping is obviously worse quality on my display when in PC/Game mode, I really wish LG did not subsample chroma in their video processor. According to my calibration software the gamut is much smaller, which results in less saturated/washed out video but the gamma is still reasonable, not as good, but reasonable. I do switch to Home Theater when watching HDR (rare for me).
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madVR options explained Last edited by Asmodian; 23rd November 2019 at 22:52. |
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23rd November 2019, 23:11 | #57850 | Link |
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On my Samsung I notice only 1 issue in PC mode: if the frequency of the HDMI input is not 29/30/59/60Hz, then the TV switches to 422 mode.
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23rd November 2019, 23:16 | #57851 | Link | ||
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it you want to do that using chrono you have to write a new rendering path using that... Quote:
alternatively use the manage 3D settings to automate it. |
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23rd November 2019, 23:44 | #57852 | Link | |
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Of course it is possible, all you need to do is not present it until you want it displayed, like any game with a frame rate limit would. This is why your timing wouldn't be that accurate but we don't know that it would be bad enough to be annoying. A lot of people seem OK with frames being displayed for +/- 8 ms (3:2 judder) and it would likely be possible to get it much better than that.
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I tested this a bunch in the past but it does work now! At least with 441.20 setting Zoom Player to a fixed refresh rate works perfectly, my player stays at a solid 60 Hz instead of drifting about. Thanks! What?! Why?!? The way TVs handle various inputs is totally bizarre. I wonder how the engineers make decisions.
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madVR options explained Last edited by Asmodian; 24th November 2019 at 02:35. |
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24th November 2019, 02:35 | #57853 | Link | |||
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the needs for frame rate capper which in turn kind of do the same. Quote:
i never even got free sync to trigger with mpc-hc. disabling free sync is planned or even already part of the nvidia driver for fixed frame rate games. Quote:
only sony and phillips are well known to support PC mode at all refreshrates without dumb things like forcing 3:2 judder that's a panasonic classic. |
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24th November 2019, 02:57 | #57854 | Link | ||
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It is interesting that Sony seems to generally do a good job at video processing, historically as well. I believe their engineers have a different viewpoint or something.
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madVR options explained |
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24th November 2019, 04:02 | #57855 | Link | |
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I just see tons of conflicting information. Like this here: “Only use RGB 8-bit for everything on a PC, including HDR games and movies, even when connected to a HDR TV over HDMI. The GPU does dithering for 10-bit content and there will be no banding. Almost everything you read on this topic is misinformation.” https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.red...12_bpclimited/ “A 10-bit signal to the display is only required when the source doesn't perform dithering (PS4 , Blu-ray player, etc.). If the PS4 did dithering, it could run RGB 8-bit 60 Hz instead of subsampling at YCbCr420 10-bit 60 Hz because there isn't enough bandwidth for RGB 10-bit 60 Hz over HDMI 2.0. If the display is 8-bit + FRC, the 10-bit signal is dithered internally by the display anyway. A true 10-bit panel is pointless since the quantization noise on 8-bit + dithering is invisible. On Windows, HDR apps render to a 10-bit surface and the GPU does dithering automatically if the signal is 8-bit. So you should just use 8-bit RGB for maximum quality.” |
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24th November 2019, 05:19 | #57856 | Link | |||
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sending limited or full range RGB should only depends on if the TV excepts full range or limited range. if the end device can be set up to except full range error free. full range is better because that is what the windows desktop runs at that's the output of the video renderer else limited range RGB in the GPU output would never ever be correct. rendering 10 bit on a WFS surface with the nvidia GPU at 8 bit has a history of terrible banding. this was such a bad setup that i didn't recheck it if this issue is still present. but i guess this could affect other software then madVR. edit: nvidia 441.08 win 1809 issue still present. test with 1909 tomorrow. edit2: same issue. Last edited by huhn; 24th November 2019 at 17:56. |
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24th November 2019, 08:15 | #57857 | Link | |
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I would read that as saying 10 bit is unimportant, arguing against sending YCbCr 422 10 bit instead of 444 or RGB 8 bit, which some think sounds good because they know what 10 bit means but do not know what YCbCr 422 means. The topic is super complicated once you bring the failings of individual displays into it. It is important to differentiate advice about a particular display from general advice.
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madVR options explained |
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24th November 2019, 17:12 | #57858 | Link |
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Hi. Could someone with a RTX 2080 card (no matter the version) and a projector (no matter which one) do this quick test for me: compare the rendering time of your usual, every day settings for 4K UHD video with the anamorphic stretch disabled vs enabled (no need for an anamorphic lens in place). I would like to know how much of a jump does the anamorphic stretch causes in the rendering time, everything else untouched.
Thank you! Stef |
Tags |
direct compute, dithering, error diffusion, madvr, ngu, nnedi3, quality, renderer, scaling, uhd upscaling, upsampling |
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