madVR - high quality video renderer (GPU assisted)

[Asmodian]

This is the player's responsibility, madVR simply scales to what the media player tells it to.

[QBhd]

madshi,

I'm guessing your new doubling logic will not trigger when I do 1280x720 ==> 1024x768 ? I have always loved the sharpness and clarity of "doubling" to 1280x1440 ==>1024x768 (downscale x & double y followed by downscale y). I did a quick test of the latest version and couldn't figure out how to get what I want, so I rolled back. With a 1024x768 display, it's the best way to "semi" supersample, true supersampling (1280x720==>2560x1440) is beyond overkill for a target resolution of 1024x768 and far to resource hungry for even a factory overclocked R9 270X. So I am lobbying for you to return control of when doubling is activated to the user... Or make it smart enough to know that supersampling in the above case is absurd, but the "1/2" doubling is actually very useful.

I'm already living without being able to use SSIM2D to downscale in the above scenario... NGU makes up for it. I don't think I will use newer versions if the control of when doubling happens is kept out of the users hands.

QB

[burfadel]

Originally Posted by ryrynz

Please don't quote such large images in the thread, thanks.

I was thinking that which is why I only quoted one of the first images. The post was directly related to information provided in those images, if I just said it the point of the post may have been lost on people.

I'll keep it in mind for next time though, I'll just write it and hope people know what I'm referring .

[Schwartz]

Originally Posted by QBhd

I don't think I will use newer versions if the control of when doubling happens is kept out of the users hands

I feel the same way. It's great that you put super-xbr back in, but upscaling is still restricted to a couple of algos so the renderer made the choice of 'what we like' for us. Because it's really a subjective thing, as shown by my attempt to sell the advantages of a soft upscaler in this thread.

In case of using super-xbr for luma doubling, chroma settings are also greyed out and stuck on automatic. All different algorithms should be available all the time. But I guess that's not in the spirit of removing options. I really don't get this - madVR has never been a tool for the computer illiterate. It's going to hurt both the software and the base of power users. For user-friendliness, there's always EVR CP and Sync. If you don't care to learn how a thing works, you're not going to care about pixel perfection or Bicubic 75 vs Bicubic 100.

Big props for the renderer and the upkeep. I don't wanna come across as ungrateful or anything.

[ryrynz]

Originally Posted by burfadel

I'll keep it in mind for next time though, I'll just write it and hope people know what I'm referring .

If you absolutely must quote with an image and that image is large then upload to imgur and use a thumbnail or as previously stated in the forum just use a link, cheers.

[khanmein]

Originally Posted by valdeski

I don't know if this is related to madVR or not but I've only experienced it with NGU enabled so I'm gonna report it hoping someone can replicate this issue.

MPC-HC 1.7.10 64-bit + MadVR any version with NGU enabled, GTX 970 latest Nvidia driver 376.09, Windows 10 up to date, no insider preview testing.

Opening a directory in MPC-HC (File - Open Directory..) results in a BSOD that points to nvlddmkm.sys+d938

Sometimes it happens sometimes it doesn't, I've had it happen more often when opening consecutive directories as in open a directory and then immediately opening another directory, and only seems to happen with NGU enabled.
It could be the Nvidia driver 376.09 or NGU, could be any since both were released very close and it never happened to me with super-xbr or NNEDI3.

no such issue here with i5-4460 + GTX 970 + W10x64 + 16 GB DDR3 + H97 mobo + NV 376.09 + 1440p60Hz

tested D3D9/D3D11 with NGU low/med

[leeperry]

Originally Posted by madshi

Yes, but you're the first one asking for this. Does anybody else need this? I'm not going to add features just for one user.

I already asked for it a while back, it would really be common sense to have a hotkey to open the control panel directly IMO instead of going through submenus. It's the mandatory "Edit Settings" button in the filter properties that kills it, 99% users don't care for the tasktray icon IMO. We could just assign it to a mouse button et voilà ))

Originally Posted by madshi

Don't you remember that you already asked me for that? You know, if you ask me the same thing twice, that actually decreases the chances of being implemented.

Well yeah, I thought you even agreed? I get that nagscreen everytime I click on APPLY or OK, how is that a good thing? I'm not 5yo, there's no need to repeat it constantly. Will I need to use Buzof? Hopefully not =/

Originally Posted by madshi

Please read the v0.91.4 announcement post. I've explicitly commented on this.

I still would rather use good old Jinc for <1.2x but I guess I can make extra profiles, I understand that NGU-Low is just as fast as Jinc but it requires downscaling, Jinc does not.

Originally Posted by madshi

I'm confused. You're saying you're getting Bicubic60AR chroma upscaling (which is *not* doubling), then you're saying you can't disable chroma doubling. That kind of contradicts each other.

Ideally I would like an option to only enable luma doubling and go Jinc AR for chroma, is that still possible? Apparently not? I haven't done my homework checking what the OSD says, I was used to be able to directly choose what I wanted instead of the guesswork you expect now.

[ryrynz]

Originally Posted by leeperry

It would really be common sense to have a hotkey to open the control panel directly

Adding my support for this.

Originally Posted by leeperry

I was used to be able to directly choose what I wanted instead of the guesswork you expect now.

In saying that you should evaluate the resulting picture, you might not even be able to see any appreciable difference over previous settings.

[StinDaWg]

Originally Posted by Telion

I think this is a limitation that can affect weak GPUs, 1.2x is too low IMHO. And the decision logic for NGU is even more inconvenient. For example, if I choose NGU low for a video that upscales 2.4x it goes "NGU low > upscale", but for NGU med or higher it goes "NGU med > NGU low < downscale" and is too much for my card, while in previous versions I was able to just use "NGU med > upscale" in this situtaion. And going quadruple for a 2.4x factor is a bit off anyway. I understand that most users here have high-end GPUs and it's not a problem for them, but please don't left behind us resource-starved people and allow more flexibility in this aspect.

Originally Posted by andybkma

madshi, I echo this sentiment... I use mVR on a laptop with a 650M and obviously can't upgrade the video card... and I also can't do any doubling at all so please leave any options in mVR that us low end video card users can still use...

Agreed. With SD->1080p my card can't do NGU-High doubling plus Jinc, but it can do it with Bicubic or Lanczos3.

So, please don't take away the ability to choice what upscaler we can use after doubling. Ideally, they should all be available to select, just like we can with downscaling now.

I don't care about chroma doubling either, as there is zero difference on my tv and it's a waste of resources. Give me all the gpu power for luma.

[leeperry]

Originally Posted by ryrynz

you should evaluate the resulting picture, you might not even be able to see any appreciable difference over previous settings

Lemme judge on that kthx, I'm not up for wasting resources on my old 7850 you know but last time I checked Jinc AR trumped them all.

Originally Posted by madshi

It's on my to do list, but it's not as straightforward as it seems. E.g. what happens if a user has a profile for situations where no scaling is needed, and if "deringing" is only active in this very profile? The settings dialog is not intelligent enough to understand that the profile can never be active at the same time as NGU, so it would complain in this situation, which wouldn't be a correct warning in this case.

In theory a similar problem could also occur with the current NGU + SuperRes warning, but it's somewhat less likely there.

Oh great, moar nagscreens for me as I'm not dropping the deringer either. Gonna install Buzof I guess ^^

[Backflash]

Originally Posted by Georgel

I've made 3 examples.

I post this in hope it is helpful for development! I'm very happy with madVR results, and NGU is considerably better for many things, but I watch anime more than 90% of the times I'm using madVR, and maybe this can be improved somehow..

Do you like jinc more than Lanczos? I think Lanczos is more neutral and doesn't bring NGU faults forward as much.
Also I like sharpen edges +thin edges at 0.8-1.0 for SD, no soften edges, add grain 1.
I may be off though, my resolution is 1440 and I never see upscaling after doubling with new builds.

http://imgur.com/a/pwRQP
Also ar in artifact removal, sometimes helps with SD anime.
AR looks slightly cleaner to me, but it's not for every frame it worsen things in some scenes and makes it better in others, so don't know if it's worth a trade.

Originally Posted by QBhd

I'm guessing your new doubling logic will not trigger when I do 1280x720 ==> 1024x768 ?
QB

Just enable 200% supersampling, it will simply double and then downscale, and to use ssim2d set "use image downscaling settings" in downscale drop down.

@madshi This brings me to another thing, simple "do not quadruple" checkbox would be nice. As temporary measure before NGU can quadruple directly.

[StinDaWg]

I just noticed something else that was pointed out on one of the previous pages.

When you choose "let madVR decide" for downscaling after upscaling, it uses strict (soft) rather than relaxed for anti-ringing. I used relaxed previously. Is this not madshi recommended setting? Is relaxed considered too sharp?

Interestingly there is almost no render time difference between strict (soft) AR and not using AR at all. Relaxed uses ~5 ms higher rendering time.

[Sunset1982]

Originally Posted by madshi

Yes, but you're the first one asking for this. Does anybody else need this? I'm not going to add features just for one user.

I would also vote for the hotkey feature.

I'm using fullscreen exclusive mode and if I'm testing new settings or features I have to right click, wait several second for windowed mode, then right click on madvr and so on...

a hotkey would make things a lot easier.

[Georgel]

Originally Posted by ryrynz

We established this the same day it was released.

Yes, but maybe I missed the conversation on aliasing, sharp is very good, but there is some aliasing for me..

Originally Posted by Asmodian

This makes sense too, as a neural net trained awhile ago, on older video content, NNEDI3 does a great job with most SD material. NNEDI3 for SD, NGU for HD.

NGU seems to make an "HD version", which replicates all the flaws too well. Any video that looked like an SD anime when scaled to 50% would have some very obvious flaws.

That is very good to keep in mind!

Thank you!

Originally Posted by ryrynz

I suspect madshi wants to replace NNEDI3 so we might see another version of NGU aimed at lower res content.

That would be interesting to see!

Originally Posted by Backflash

Do you like jinc more than Lanczos? I think Lanczos is more neutral and doesn't bring NGU faults forward as much.
Also I like sharpen edges +thin edges at 0.8-1.0 for SD, no soften edges, add grain 1.
I may be off though, my resolution is 1440 and I never see upscaling after doubling with new builds.

http://imgur.com/a/pwRQP
Also ar in artifact removal, sometimes helps with SD anime.
AR looks slightly cleaner to me, but it's not for every frame it worsen things in some scenes and makes it better in others, so don't know if it's worth a trade.



Just enable 200% supersampling, it will simply double and then downscale, and to use ssim2d set "use image downscaling settings" in downscale drop down.

@madshi This brings me to another thing, simple "do not quadruple" checkbox would be nice. As temporary measure before NGU can quadruple directly.

Artifact removal adds some ringing (this is how it's named, right?)

There is a white area around black lines added with artifact removal, depending on the anime exactly, this can get quite visible, and while some people might like it, subjectively I wasn't so enthused about it..

[Georgel]

Originally Posted by burfadel

All three screenshots by Georgel (only NGU shown above as no point showing the other), and the one by Clubby show a present queue that doesn't seem to be working.

Clubby has it set to 14 and Georgel 8, but in both cases they are running at only 1! I guess that's why there are dropped frames. I both cases the other queues are all perfectly filled.

I've come across that numerous times as well. People have reported various issues sporadically in this thread, I seem to be hit by most of them! I've finally worked out how to play it flawlessly with the right settings, the downside being that it is D3D11 windowed mode (but full screen) rather than D3D11 exclusive.

@Georgel
How come D3D 11 fullscreen windowed rather than D3D 11 fullscreen exclusive?

D3D exclusive works poorly if I have to fast ALT + TAB, plus I watch a ton of very short videos (Anime music videos), entering and exiting exclusive is a pain if changing the video every 2-3 minutes.

Also D3D full screen causes some issues with some videos like madVR crash or other problems, it seems it's best left off.

On the note of present queue, I've no idea why id doesn't go higher, it should do so (?)

[QBhd]

Originally Posted by Backflash

......
Just enable 200% supersampling, it will simply double and then downscale, and to use ssim2d set "use image downscaling settings" in downscale drop down.

......

Clearly you did not read my entire post, since I stated why supersampling is not an option.

As for SSIM2D downscaling in my situation (1280x720==>1024x768)... that was changed after madVR v0.90.20

QB

[andybkma]

madshi, quick question... so with all your recent GUI and other mVR changes do you still recommend for low GPU laptops (such as mine with a 650M video card) NGU-low for chroma upscaling and Bicubic50/catmull rom for image upscaling? Am pretty sure I read that as your recommendation a few weeks ago, but just want to be sure. Material played is either 720 or 1080 AVC using CUDA.Thanks much :-)

[omarank]

Originally Posted by madshi

I don't think JincAR is much better than Bicubic60AR for chroma doubling, while NNEDI3-16 can be a bigger improvement in some rare situations. If you disagree, maybe you can post a screenshot which proves that JincAR is visibly better than Bicubic60AR, and similar in quality to NNEDI3-16?

I am not able to find any scene atm which could show the improvement with Jinc over Bicubic60 for chroma doubling. But IIRC I extensively tested this long time back when NNEDI just became available in madVR and preferred Jinc over Bicubic75 and Lanczos at that time. I will check this again in the coming weekend, and will share screenshots if I find a good sample.

By the way, I could never see any improvement with NNEDI3 16 over Jinc for chroma doubling.

[leeperry]

Originally Posted by QBhd

my situation (1280x720==>1024x768)

Professor Obvious speaking, ages ago I briefly owned a 1024x576 HC910 projector and it looked really nasty with HD. Life is short and I realize that a new TV set might not be all that cheap but these days you can get a curved 1080p 55" OLED set for a grand: http://www.fnac.ch/TV-LG-55EG910V-OL...curve/a9734536

Feeding a 1024x768 16/9 set with mVR is kind of a major disgrace, I'm sure you could hook up a decent deal these days.....money is the root of all evil and all that but you're like currently listening to a megabucks audio rig with $10 headphones. Waste of your time, your money and hardly a scenario madshi would care for, same goes for XP users: upgrade or else basically.

Sammy sets are given away this time of the year but gotta be careful about what panel they run, luckily you can check in the service menu directly in the store.

[Backflash]

Originally Posted by QBhd

Clearly you did not read my entire post, since I stated why supersampling is not an option.

As for SSIM2D downscaling in my situation (1280x720==>1024x768)... that was changed after madVR v0.90.20

QB

Sorry, it's just very hard to understand the issue last time i've seen this resolution was on CRT in 2002.
I get it why you want to upscale, sort of, I don't know how much sharpness can be reflected, it's such a niche case with "half" double.
Is it a projector?