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Old 2nd September 2013, 13:16   #21  |  Link
hello_hello
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Originally Posted by filler56789 View Post
That's not entirely true. Even the lossless audio compression may add null samples at the beginning or/and at the end of the encodes, in order to fit the defined frame sizes,
so, if/when the decoder doesn't discard the padding samples, then the playback cannot be gapless anymore;

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=168133
Yeah but you were testing using a DST-MA encoder weren't you? Isn't DTS-MA a lossy core with a layer of extra data so it can also be decoded losslessly?
If that's the case I'd assume the lossy part would need to support gapless playback just as any lossy encoder would.

I've tested it using both FLAC and LAME encoded MP3s, and whether they're encoded as individual tracks or as a single multitrack files they play back gaplessly using foobar2000. In the case of MP3 at least, I'd assume it requires a player which supports gapless playback, but even so, if I encode a wave file with foobar2000 it'll report the wave file as consisting of "X" number of samples, it'll report the encoded MP3 as having the same number of samples and after converting back to wave the sample count still doesn't change. FLAC works the same way, but probably because it's inherently gapless rather than relying on metadata as MP3's do.
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Old 2nd September 2013, 15:36   #22  |  Link
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^ A couple of months ago, I decoded a MLP file with ffmpeg, and indeed, the resulting WAV file also had some "additional silence" at the end. I haven't studied the source-code of the DVD-Audio plugin for foobar2000, so I can only hope/assume its author has done the job well.

But back to the Master Audio example --- the fact is, if you use the DTS StreamPlayer for decoding, you always get a bit-exact output. BTW, one of the reasons for the "non-existence" of an open-source Master Audio decoder is, it would require a bit-exact decompressor for the lossy "core", in the first place.
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Old 2nd September 2013, 16:07   #23  |  Link
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Originally Posted by hello_hello View Post
Quoting yourself didn't seem to provide an explanation very technical in nature. I've ripped gapless albums as individual flac files which play back gaplessly and I've ripped them as single flac files which play back gaplessly, so when you've decided which won't work, except in particular cases, maybe you could offer the technical explanation as to why?
The quote from wiki is taken out of context, which context refers strictly to playback on computers and/or encapsulation into containers AKA files again on computers.

For one claiming to have read the thread it seems quite a mischance to miss the explanation given therein. Anyway, there are no files on CDs, just structures.

To further quote wiki,
Quote:
Originally Posted by wikipedia
Hardware

Android devices (see Google Play Music in Software)
Apple:
iPhone[8]
iPod classic supports gapless playback of MP3s and AACs from the fifth generation onward[8]
iPod nano second generation and later[8]
iPod Touch[8]
Archos Gmini XS202S
Cowon S9 supports gapless playback without software dependency since 2.31b firmware. Most newer Cowon players support gapless playback right out of the box (J3, X7, iAudio 9)
Linn Products DS network players
All players in the Logitech/Slim Devices Squeezebox range support gapless playback for all gapless formats (lame MP3, FLAC, Vorbis, etc.). Crossfading is also optionally available.
Microsoft Zune supports gapless playback with Zune 2.5 or later firmware, though some bugs remain and occasionally small pops or skips can be heard.[9]
Olive Media Products Opus and Melody players
Raumfeld multi-room audio system supports gapless playback since firmware version 1.2
Rio Karma and TrekStor Vibez gapless hardware players with no software dependency
Rockbox for various digital audio players.
Victor Alneo V Series and C Series[10][11]
I see no CD player there, again a strong hint that gapless playback and its conditions refers strictly to something else than a CD. An eagle eye would immediately notice that all HW solutions above have a common concept the file access.
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Old 3rd September 2013, 08:14   #24  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Ghitulescu View Post
The quote from wiki is taken out of context, which context refers strictly to playback on computers and/or encapsulation into containers AKA files again on computers.
How do you play your CD tracks ripped as FLAC/WAVE/Lossless files? With a CD player? What else would it be referring to?
The quote isn't taken out of context. The part I quoted stated all lossless formats are inherently gapless. Which part of that statement are you disputing?

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Originally Posted by Ghitulescu View Post
For one claiming to have read the thread it seems quite a mischance to miss the explanation given therein. Anyway, there are no files on CDs, just structures.
I've read the whole thread. Unless ripping a CD to wave+cue as you suggested somehow copies the CD structure, as opposed to ripping to FLAC+cue or multi-track FLAC, what's your point?

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Originally Posted by Ghitulescu View Post
To further quote wiki,
I see no CD player there, again a strong hint that gapless playback and its conditions refers strictly to something else than a CD. An eagle eye would immediately notice that all HW solutions above have a common concept the file access.
I don't think it'd take an eagle anything to understand the ripped files won't be played with a CD player. The question originally asked was what would be a good method of ripping a CD in order to be able to burn the ripped files to make an identical copy. You said in relation to FLAC+cue:
"should a CD be gap-less (like most electronic music and live concerts) there is a good chance that a short (and nasty) gap would appear at track boundaries" then you claimed:
"Because I tried and there is also a nice *technical* explanation why it won't work, except in particular cases. "

Sometimes it seems the simpler the question, the harder you try to avoid answering it. When will this nasty gap you refer to appear when using FLAC+cue, or individual FLAC files, or a multi-channel FLAC file, or whenever you believe using FLAC will cause it to happen? When you re-burn the FLAC files as a new CD? Once I know, I'll happily test it for myself. And once again, what's the technical explanation for it happening to which you referred?

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Old 3rd September 2013, 08:23   #25  |  Link
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Originally Posted by filler56789 View Post
^ A couple of months ago, I decoded a MLP file with ffmpeg, and indeed, the resulting WAV file also had some "additional silence" at the end. I haven't studied the source-code of the DVD-Audio plugin for foobar2000, so I can only hope/assume its author has done the job well.
I can't say I've paid much attention to DVD-Audio files, so I couldn't really comment on them being in inherently gapless (I'd assume they would be), or whether "additional silence" at the end after decoding would be a decoder issue etc. Maybe MLP is the exception which makes the rule.
Do you happen to have a small sample?
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Old 3rd September 2013, 10:21   #26  |  Link
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My answer tothe OP has already been given.
If he wants to preserve the structure of the original CD, he must use a single file approach with a cue file if the album is gapless. Depending on the reader and writer, he can enrich this cue file with ISRC and other useful codes (including CD TEXT, so often missing from the originals).
If he wants to play them, he could rip each track individually, with or without a cue file, as most burning software allow one to construct a CD from single audio files (CUE on the fly ). There are no restrictions for playback on the PC, standalones might require special codecs (like MP3 and the like).

If he wants to follow my advice, fine. If he decides to follow others, again fine. I am not founding a church and my word is not God's one. I also do not intend to teach other people on my own time.
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Old 3rd September 2013, 11:48   #27  |  Link
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My answer tothe OP has already been given.
Well I'll give you one thing, you're still finding slightly new variations on classic topic avoidance techniques. What happens is, in a discussion forum, when answers are given posters also tend to discuss them. I've done it while conversing with another poster. You've been doing just that until the questions no longer suited you.

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Originally Posted by Ghitulescu View Post
If he wants to preserve the structure of the original CD, he must use a single file approach with a cue file if the album is gapless.
So FLAC+cue is included in that now?
It's nonsense anyway, unless you can demonstrate why a gapless multi-track approach, or a single multi-track FLAC file without cue etc, can't produce exactly the same result.

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Originally Posted by Ghitulescu View Post
Depending on the reader and writer, he can enrich this cue file with ISRC and other useful codes (including CD TEXT, so often missing from the originals).
If he wants to play them, he could rip each track individually, with or without a cue file, as most burning software allow one to construct a CD from single audio files (CUE on the fly ). There are no restrictions for playback on the PC, standalones might require special codecs (like MP3 and the like).
Change of topic, topic avoidance?

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Originally Posted by Ghitulescu View Post
If he wants to follow my advice, fine. If he decides to follow others, again fine. I am not founding a church and my word is not God's one. I also do not intend to teach other people on my own time.
I think the value of your word is fairly well appreciated. Just out of curiosity, if your intention isn't to teach other people on your own time (don't you post from work anyway, on someone else's time?) for what purpose do you post? Why did you post in this thread?

Why is it so hard? You claimed under some circumstance (you might have to clear up exactly when) using FLAC+cue would produce a nasty gap in what should be gapless album/CD? In the context of this discussion, when exactly? Burning them to CD again? Is it a secret similar to the technical explanation to which you referred but won't offer because that'd be teaching in a way explaining how to enrich cue files or how to add text to burned CDs isn't?
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Old 4th September 2013, 15:31   #28  |  Link
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Hi Folks,

I wanted to thank everyone for their contributions. I've begun examining the various linux tools people have mentioned. When I've found a configuration that suits my needs I'll post a description.

thanks again!

RLU
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