Versatile Video Coding (VVC) / H.266: HEVC successor

[benwaggoner]

Originally Posted by ksec

That is not strictly true. Qualcomm was "one" of them, not the main. There were lots of companies in the MPEG-LA camp that prevented the single pool. Including Apple.

In terms of Smartphone, it is Qualcomm which has the power. You want 4G / 5G along with other Modem technology? You need to deal with Qualcomm no matter what. And I would be surprised if that patent agreement doesn't include video compression, since Qualcomm lumped everything from CPU, power management to other things all in one package anyway.

AV1 and VVC will likely live side by side in the future. Since the industry doesn't seems to agree on anything.

If VVC looks like a clear market winner for premium content, that could result in Qualcomm and others not including it on their SoCs. AV1 takes a whole lot of gates, and leakage means just the existence of AV1 HW support hurts thermals and battery life some. VVC outperforms AV1 in compression while needing less mm^2. AV1 in software works well enough for short form DRM-free user generated content ala YouTube and Facebook.

[PCU]

Originally Posted by benwaggoner

If VVC looks like a clear market winner for premium content, that could result in Qualcomm and others not including it on their SoCs. AV1 takes a whole lot of gates, and leakage means just the existence of AV1 HW support hurts thermals and battery life some. VVC outperforms AV1 in compression while needing less mm^2. AV1 in software works well enough for short form DRM-free user generated content ala YouTube and Facebook.

AV1 is a competitor to H.265, AV2 is also a competitor to H.266. Most streaming services prefer AV1 and in the future AV2. (Only Apple is swimming in the opposite direction of the water!). This is what happened in the video game industry: using Vorbis instead of MP3/AAC/WMA/DD, etc.
But I prefer H.26x formats because comparing YouTube/Facebook/Insta/Twitter's H.264 with VP9/AV1, the quality of H.264 (call it x264) was always better. (VP9/AV1 is too blurry)

[birdie]

Originally Posted by PCU

AV1 is a competitor to H.265, AV2 is also a competitor to H.266. Most streaming services prefer AV1 and in the future AV2. (Only Apple is swimming in the opposite direction of the water!). This is what happened in the video game industry: using Vorbis instead of MP3/AAC/WMA/DD, etc.
But I prefer H.26x formats because comparing YouTube/Facebook/Insta/Twitter's H.264 with VP9/AV1, the quality of H.264 (call it x264) was always better. (VP9/AV1 is too blurry)

VP9 encoded YouTube videos are much better than H.264 encoded ones by a large margin. Would be nice if you showed at least one where "H.264 is better".

[PCU]

Originally Posted by birdie

VP9 encoded YouTube videos are much better than H.264 encoded ones by a large margin. Would be nice if you showed at least one where "H.264 is better".

Just download the H.264 and VP9 version of this video and compare it (download using IDM):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_GOR5gvQwDI

[birdie]

Originally Posted by PCU

Just download the H.264 and VP9 version of this video and compare it (download using IDM):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_GOR5gvQwDI

The source is just 480p and is very low quality. Both encodes are quite bad but H.264 retrains a lot more details.

It's not obvious when youtube encoded the video, looks like 3.5 years ago, probably at the time their VP9 encoder was not good or/and didn't have enough bitrate.

20092622 Oct 25  2018 'Simple Plan - I'\''m Just A Kid (Official Video)-_GOR5gvQwDI.mp4'
12959041 Oct 25  2018 'Simple Plan - I'\''m Just A Kid (Official Video)-_GOR5gvQwDI.webm'

[PCU]

Originally Posted by birdie

The source is just 480p and is very low quality. Both encodes are quite bad but H.264 retrains a lot more details.

It's not obvious when youtube encoded the video, looks like 3.5 years ago, probably at the time their VP9 encoder was not good or/and didn't have enough bitrate.

20092622 Oct 25  2018 'Simple Plan - I'\''m Just A Kid (Official Video)-_GOR5gvQwDI.mp4'
12959041 Oct 25  2018 'Simple Plan - I'\''m Just A Kid (Official Video)-_GOR5gvQwDI.webm'

What program did you download with?
Also, AV1 still is bad, just download one of the Gamers Nexus videos and check how bad is the AV1 version.

[birdie]

Originally Posted by PCU

What program did you download with?
Also, AV1 still is bad, just download one of the Gamers Nexus videos and check how bad is the AV1 version.

https://github.com/ytdl-org/youtube-dl

or its more advanced fork

https://github.com/yt-dlp/yt-dlp

[LigH]

Also remember: YouTube recodes all videos with a rather constant bitrate as target for streaming over a limited bandwidth; this returns anything but optimal quality per bitrate. Different codecs may use substantially different strategies to distribute the bitrate across a video playback buffer. Especially a patent-free codec may need to avoid patented algorithms which may be useful for this specific use case. Disclaimer: I may or may not be wrong in my claims.

[PCU]

20 decade is the decade of streaming!

[Gravitator]

Originally Posted by benwaggoner

If VVC looks like a clear market winner for premium content, that could result in Qualcomm and others not including it on their SoCs. AV1 takes a whole lot of gates, and leakage means just the existence of AV1 HW support hurts thermals and battery life some. VVC outperforms AV1 in compression while needing less mm^2. AV1 in software works well enough for short form DRM-free user generated content ala YouTube and Facebook.

At what settings and resolution? Is there a comparative demo available?

[ksec]

Originally Posted by benwaggoner

If VVC looks like a clear market winner for premium content, that could result in Qualcomm and others not including it on their SoCs. AV1 takes a whole lot of gates, and leakage means just the existence of AV1 HW support hurts thermals and battery life some. VVC outperforms AV1 in compression while needing less mm^2. AV1 in software works well enough for short form DRM-free user generated content ala YouTube and Facebook.

Both VVC and AV1 decoding are definitely coming in the next Qualcomm SoC flagship update. It was suppose to be 2021 but the IP got delayed. ( Not sure about encoding, especially AV1 )

Die Size and Area are less of a problem with leading edge node. But yes thermals and energy usage. Especially Apple which has a stringent requirement. Both VP9 and HEVC decode 4K content on Apple SoC with less than 150mW. There are three ( or four ) hardware decoding IP, but I am not aware of any of them that offer this low level of of AV1 decoding energy usage. And Samsung just announced Exynos 2200 with AV1 decoding, but no EVC decoding or encoding support.

But I am getting a little frustrated and losing patient with the lack of progress. AV2 is nowhere to be seen. x266 no show. EVC missing.

[Blue_MiSfit]

Originally Posted by ksec

Both VVC and AV1 decoding are definitely coming in the next Qualcomm SoC flagship update.

Really? Has this been publicly confirmed?

[birdie]

Originally Posted by Blue_MiSfit

Really? Has this been publicly confirmed?

I presume it's wishful thinking unless the said person works in or personally knows someone who works in Qualcomm.

[ksec]

Originally Posted by birdie

I presume it's wishful thinking unless the said person works in or personally knows someone who works in Qualcomm.

Both Apple and Qualcomm use their in house IP and not third party IP for video / image encoding / decoding.

They are inferred from Qualcomm's public statement. New Video engine which includes VVC was originally scheduled for ( end of )2021. This got delayed and confirmed in recent Snapdragon Tech Submit.

We also know Qualcomm has engineers working on AV1 "decoding". ( Again, decoding, no idea on encoding ) And I assume it will come with their new Video Engine ( as announced with VVC ) as the video IP only gets updated once every 2 years or so. Or they could choose to not support it and have those engineers working on different things. But I find that unlikely.

And of course, roadmap changes. But all of these are inferring from public information.

[benwaggoner]

Originally Posted by LigH

Also remember: YouTube recodes all videos with a rather constant bitrate as target for streaming over a limited bandwidth; this returns anything but optimal quality per bitrate. Different codecs may use substantially different strategies to distribute the bitrate across a video playback buffer. Especially a patent-free codec may need to avoid patented algorithms which may be useful for this specific use case. Disclaimer: I may or may not be wrong in my claims.

YouTube also does their encoding on spare cycles on Google servers, with a lot less compute/pixel than premium content encoding gets. They also encode individual segments on different hosts and assemble them after the fact. So VBV has to be conservative at the stitch points as there is no buffer state info available to use.

Plus they are highly reliant on VMAF tuning, and so have all the typical blind spots of VMAF, which tends to ignore banding and psychovisual adaptive quantization techniques.

Whatever the codec, YouTube's quality has always been lower at a given bitrate. Which makes perfect sense given their business model.

[benwaggoner]

Originally Posted by ksec

Both Apple and Qualcomm use their in house IP and not third party IP for video / image encoding / decoding.

They are inferred from Qualcomm's public statement. New Video engine which includes VVC was originally scheduled for ( end of )2021. This got delayed and confirmed in recent Snapdragon Tech Submit.

We also know Qualcomm has engineers working on AV1 "decoding". ( Again, decoding, no idea on encoding ) And I assume it will come with their new Video Engine ( as announced with VVC ) as the video IP only gets updated once every 2 years or so. Or they could choose to not support it and have those engineers working on different things. But I find that unlikely.

And of course, roadmap changes. But all of these are inferring from public information.

It's also possible we'll see hybrid HW/SW decoders for AV1. It's not like there is premium content requiring hardware DRM AV1 content out there. AV1 is almost exclusively used for non-DRM'ed short form content so far.

[PCU]

RIP Windows Media Video!

[benwaggoner]

Originally Posted by PCU

RIP Windows Media Video!

That funeral was held circa 2009. I was in the room when the death certificate was issued .

[PCU]

Originally Posted by benwaggoner

That funeral was held circa 2009. I was in the room when the death certificate was issued .

Say hello to: ProRes RAW.

[ksec]

For those who are interested in the current HEVC / Advanced Access patent fiasco.

http://www.fosspatents.com/2022/01/a...an-rename.html