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Old 17th August 2012, 19:09   #21  |  Link
JEEB
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Originally Posted by poisondeathray View Post
But where did you get this "slightly better" from ? Some tests or opinion or "someone said" ....
The format is very far from being set (they're still open to ideas and algorithms to make stuff work better), so benchmarking at this point would be pretty much useless.

Getting it to be better than HEVC is a goal of theirs, although we'll see when the first version of it actually gets finished
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The goal of the project is to provide a free to implement, use and distribute digital media format and reference implementation with technical performance superior to h.265.
Anyways, the "next generation formats" I see right now in development are:
  • HEVC (developed in the usual way that we know from the earlier standards)
  • vp8-dev/vp8-next (yes, this is why Google really doesn't care about VP8 that much, if at all; developed at Google behind closed doors IIRC)
  • Daala (openly developed by Xiph so that anyone can join the effort)
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Old 17th August 2012, 19:33   #22  |  Link
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[*]vp8-dev/vp8-next (yes, this is why Google really doesn't care about VP8 that much, if at all; developed at Google behind closed doors IIRC)
[/LIST]
http://git.chromium.org/gitweb/?p=webm/libvpx.git;a=shortlog;h=refs/heads/experimental

Is that the new vp8-dev or the "old" vp8 ?
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Old 17th August 2012, 19:39   #23  |  Link
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if opus can be slightly better than aac so i see no reason that people who are behind x264 could not create free alternative to h.265. with proper finacial support from google they may create something alot better than crappy vp8 codec.
One of the major issues isn't really in coming up with better ideas, though that is definitely not easy, it's making sure to avoid the patent minefield. You can believe that anything like Daala will have the hounds at places like MPEG-LA chomping at the bit to find people with relevant patents.
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Old 17th August 2012, 19:50   #24  |  Link
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oh software patents ... who does not love them
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Old 18th August 2012, 09:18   #25  |  Link
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Hopefully there is an Opus for Video as well. But i think Video Patents are much worst then audio. Having said that no one so far has complained and sue Google for Vp8 yet which is strange.

There was that Next Gen Real Video which is now dead in the water.

It seems DS is involved in Daala as well ( What an Ugly Name ), xvp8, x265, xdaala? Which comes first.?

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Old 18th August 2012, 13:33   #26  |  Link
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it is difficult to know which will come first as google always keeps quiet regarding their development. Daala is still in the design stages at the moment, who knows how long until a fully fuctional version is ready. HEVC is due to be ratified in January. At which point hardware vendors can start developing dedicated ASIC for hardware decoding of HEVC. It will be a while for a half decent encoder is released though. Daala will surely be first out with a good encoder before HEVC. Google is an unknown. I wish they would just help out with Daala, then it would be even better and released even quicker and less likely to encounter patent lawsuits.
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Old 18th August 2012, 14:56   #27  |  Link
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It seems DS is involved in Daala as well ( What an Ugly Name ), xvp8, x265, xdaala? Which comes first.?
Xvp8 is being sponsored by pretty much the only side that still cares about it -- Mozilla. It can IIRC already do intra encoding and I'd bet that because it has sponsoring it'll also be the fastest out :P

That said, it has nothing to do with next-gen formats.

Also, I'm not sure if I'm misreading your post, but AFAIK D_S is not involved with the x265 project that is on Google Code. The person developing that is a guy who used to contribute a couple of commits to x264 back in 2004.
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Old 18th August 2012, 15:47   #28  |  Link
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Daala wiki lists Jason and Loren as having been involved in discussions about it.

http://wiki.xiph.org/Daala

Take from that what you will.
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Old 18th August 2012, 16:57   #29  |  Link
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Daala wiki lists Jason and Loren as having been involved in discussions about it.

http://wiki.xiph.org/Daala

Take from that what you will.
Yes, they have been involved in the design discussions around the Daala project, as the development process of the format is completely open.
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Old 18th August 2012, 18:07   #30  |  Link
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Hopefully there is an Opus for Video as well. But i think Video Patents are much worst then audio. Having said that no one so far has complained and sue Google for Vp8 yet which is strange.
It's worth to mention that the most critics and talk about possible patent issues for VP8 were coming from .... people of H.264 industry as well as some developers.

Make your own conclusion.

Until now MPEG-LA doesn't present any lawsuit against Google. And apparently it won't happen any time soon.

I'm not an open-source-only follower and I really like the standards like H.264, HEVC, AAC as well as open source formats as Vorbis, Opus, VP8, Daala.

But when I've started to prepare for public test of Opus ( an open source audio format) with Hydrogen Audio community I've received a ridiculuos critics. It's not hard to imagine that people behind it were involved to development and sells of H.264 and AAC encoders (as it was pretty obvious at that point Opus was quite better than AAC/HE-AAC).


P.S.
The same way as MPEG-LA can accuse organizations which develop open source formats the last ones can accuse MPEG-LA of patent troll.
It's not that easy.

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Old 20th August 2012, 16:29   #31  |  Link
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... the last ones can accuse MPEG-LA of patent troll.
That's not punishable under any jurisdiction .
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Old 20th August 2012, 16:35   #32  |  Link
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It's an antitrust law.
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Old 20th August 2012, 17:35   #33  |  Link
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Then it's infringed for at least 20 years, take for instance the GSM case, of any of the MPEG patent pools ....
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Old 20th August 2012, 18:03   #34  |  Link
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Hmmm....

I thought the scope of this topic was to discuss the merits of HEVC (aka: H.265) - Not patents, lawsuits and who stole what from whom!
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Old 26th August 2012, 15:26   #35  |  Link
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Yeah, sorry it got side tracked. Any news on x265? Or will it only start once the spec is finalised.
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Old 26th August 2012, 15:37   #36  |  Link
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No-one has yet come up with developing a HEVC encoder based on x264. The x265 project started by a guy who has a couple of commits in x264 from 2004 is seemingly a clear from-zero project, not related to x264.

Another HEVC encoder project I've noticed was started by a person I know, and he is seemingly working on it every now and then. Nothing worth calling home about (yet).

As for decoders, smarter from libav has gotten intra frames to work it seems.

tl;dr
If you expect a HEVC encoder on the base of x264, there is no such thing around or even in the design phase.
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Old 3rd September 2012, 07:25   #37  |  Link
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I believe posters are mistaken who think that HEVC will take a long time to become mainstream. It won't be driven by broadcasters. It will be driven by Apple and IP video delivery costs/quality. Apple will introduce it into some next generation devices in the next few years and the cost/quality benefits will do the rest. 4K video over IP anyone?
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Old 3rd September 2012, 11:04   #38  |  Link
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i doubt that average user will dump current fullhd display for expensive fancy 4k. the same rule applies to fullhd camcorders.
besides insead of 4k i would like to see 1080p at the same bitrate on youtube.
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Old 3rd September 2012, 17:09   #39  |  Link
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I believe posters are mistaken who think that HEVC will take a long time to become mainstream. It won't be driven by broadcasters. It will be driven by Apple and IP video delivery costs/quality. Apple will introduce it into some next generation devices in the next few years and the cost/quality benefits will do the rest. 4K video over IP anyone?
I wouldn't be so sure because HEVC's main advantage is higher compression, but this comes from increased complexity and even decoding will require more CPU power. Since current hardware hardly use all neat h264 features due to performance reasons, It doesn't looks like something even more complex is what they really interested in. (Edit: unless Apple wants the video to drain batteries in their i-stuff faster). Most likely it will face the fate of mpeg4-asp until blurays will be switched by some new purple-rays or whatever-rays and yet another standard will be developed.

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Old 5th September 2012, 18:33   #40  |  Link
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[*]vp8-dev/vp8-next (yes, this is why Google really doesn't care about VP8 that much, if at all; developed at Google behind closed doors IIRC)[*]Daala (openly developed by Xiph so that anyone can join the effort) [/LIST]
Actually, they had a summit about it in July, and have now posted all the documents from it.

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1590046#post1590046
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