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Old 1st April 2020, 04:29   #1  |  Link
ryrynz
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Deep Space Nine upscale project

I recently saw this post over at Extremetech.com and wondered if there was any video editors or upscale/denoiser gurus that might help the author out as he's a bit of an Avisynth noob and is after some pointers to make this upscale even better.
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Old 1st April 2020, 06:55   #2  |  Link
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I sent him an email saying I could help with the deinterlacing part.
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Old 1st April 2020, 13:42   #3  |  Link
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I sent him an email saying I could help with the deinterlacing part.
Hopefully he ignores it as nothing good will come from it.

Last edited by Stereodude; 1st April 2020 at 13:47.
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Old 1st April 2020, 14:12   #4  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ryrynz View Post
I recently saw this post over at Extremetech.com and wondered if there was any video editors or upscale/denoiser gurus that might help the author out as he's a bit of an Avisynth noob and is after some pointers to make this upscale even better.
The upscale portion of his process isn't his problem. It's what he's feeding into it.

He has no clear stated goal. Is he trying to make 24p? 30p? 60p? VFR?

My understanding is that DS9 has telecined 24p and interlaced video mixed together in frames (where VFX is used). I don't know how you can fix that correctly unless you use masks & treat each portion separately which would be totally impractical because the mask would have to change on a per frame basis. Even then, what do you with the two halves to combine them? Only 120Hz video can contain both without judder or blending on either.

His audio problems make no sense. QTGMC doesn't change the duration of the video. It just doubles the frame rate. And, in my experience QTGMC will shimmer when used on telecined content, which is what he sees. It does do some noise reduction (not as good as MCTD) and it also sharpens the output (unless you explicitly dial it back).
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Old 1st April 2020, 14:23   #5  |  Link
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The telecined 24p should include all fields at least once so QTGMC should be unnecessary/harmful for those parts (as Stereodude points out it causes shimmer).

The PAL DVDs should be higher resolution (the first two seasons of TNG were converted from NTSC to PAL, after that they were done properly), although the video/effects parts may suffer from the DEFT(?) conversion.
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Old 1st April 2020, 14:28   #6  |  Link
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The telecined 24p should include all fields at least once so QTGMC should be unnecessary/harmful for those parts.
Yes, but it's a mess. You can be in the middle of a telecined 24p sequence when all of a sudden some VFX work (which is i60) is composited into the scene for a few seconds. How do you handle that? Engage QTGMC for a few seconds, then turn it back off? Then you've got a 24p section, a 60p section, and a 24p section.
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Old 3rd April 2020, 10:39   #7  |  Link
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if it is 24p and 60p maybe 30p is nothing new. stuff like this is released even to day.

VFR encode is clearly do able.
it did this as a test about 10 years ago with a 24p 30p mix source which is pretty easily in comparison because a deinterlancer wasn't needed.

not sure if it was http://www.avisynth.nl/index.php/ExactDedup or just dedup but the trick was 120 HZ and by simply manually multiplying every scene and running the filter over it with a zero tolerance.
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Old 3rd April 2020, 14:37   #8  |  Link
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For ExactDeDup, dupe frames have to be bit identical, so probably not work as required on previously compressed source.

EDIT: Maybe I have misunderstood, not sure (no sleep again, brain not working at all). (Will work if newly artifically created dupes [EDIT: ExactDedup will work, not the brain, brain is beyond help ])
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Old 4th April 2020, 15:41   #9  |  Link
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I applaud the person trying to tackle this project, but I fear he doesn't know enough to actually accomplish his goal. He talks about Handbrake and QTGMC at the same time, which makes me think he's just flopping about. If I were to do this I would inverse telecine and have a fallback video stream from QTGMC to use if any residual interlacing was detected. TFM() could easily accomplish this and I use a similar approach all the time. I think trying to do a variable frame rate encode based on visual effects and scene cuts is just setting yourself up for project burnout. After all, Paramount remastered TNG for blu-ray ending up with a solid 23.976fps all the way through. So... Do a lossless run to obtain your 23.976fps "master" and then run that through the Topaz software. That's as close as you can get without access to real studio masters.
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Old 4th April 2020, 16:08   #10  |  Link
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After all, Paramount remastered TNG for blu-ray ending up with a solid 23.976fps all the way through.
Didn't they redo all the video effects shots?
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Old 4th April 2020, 16:13   #11  |  Link
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Didn't they redo all the video effects shots?
Yes. https://trekmovie.com/trek-remastered/tng-remastered/
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Old 4th April 2020, 16:27   #12  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post
Unfortunately, we hobbyists don't have that option. So, the TNG 60i effects were redone to 23.976p. Our best option is then to deinterlace the 60i areas and choose specific frames, or more precisely, let TFM do it for us.
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Old 4th April 2020, 19:49   #13  |  Link
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Originally Posted by SaurusX View Post
Our best option is then to deinterlace the 60i areas and choose specific frames, or more precisely, let TFM do it for us.
And what is the output framerate?

What does your proposed solution look like from a script standpoint?
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Old 4th April 2020, 22:36   #14  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post
My understanding is that DS9 has telecined 24p and interlaced video mixed together in frames (where VFX is used). I don't know how you can fix that correctly unless you use masks & treat each portion separately which would be totally impractical because the mask would have to change on a per frame basis.
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Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post
Yes, but it's a mess. You can be in the middle of a telecined 24p sequence when all of a sudden some VFX work (which is i60) is composited into the scene for a few seconds. How do you handle that? Engage QTGMC for a few seconds, then turn it back off?
I solved that problem years ago:

Code:
mpeg2source("212.d2v")

Y=nnedi3(field=-2)

A=yadifmod2(mode=1,edeint=Y).selecteven()
B=yadifmod2(mode=1,edeint=Y).selectodd()
C=Tfm(field=1,mode=0,cthresh=2,mthresh=2,clip2=A,micmatching=0)
D=Tfm(field=0,mode=0,cthresh=2,mthresh=2,clip2=B,micmatching=0)
Interleave(C,D)
Tweak other parameters to taste.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SaurusX View Post
I applaud the person trying to tackle this project, but I fear he doesn't know enough to actually accomplish his goal. He talks about Handbrake and QTGMC at the same time, which makes me think he's just flopping about
He admitted to being an AVIsynth noob.

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Originally Posted by SaurusX View Post
Unfortunately, we hobbyists don't have that option. So, the TNG 60i effects were redone to 23.976p. Our best option is then to deinterlace the 60i areas and choose specific frames, or more precisely, let TFM do it for us.
Or just bob to p60 and leave it at that.
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Old 21st April 2020, 10:01   #15  |  Link
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So the problem that we have is that some frames need to be reverse telecined and some need to be deinterlaced, but not both. Would that be a correct statement of the problem?
Not quite. See below...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post
You want to IVTC all the parts of the original DVD that are encoded as film with a soft pulldown. You still want to IVTC as much of the rest of the video portions as possible. You only want to deinterlace any frames that have residual combing or are interlaced video.
Inverse telecine involves converting the footage back to 24 fps, which is not only unnecessary, but also makes this project about 10x as complicated as it needs to be because suddenly you're in the world of mixed-framerate video which is incompatible with the entire VFW ecosystem.

You will, however, need to do a mix of field-matching and bob-deinterlacing. I provided the script for that earlier.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chir View Post
To deal with this, we'd need to create an OVR file (two actually),
Whoa whoa whoa, no. There is no need to drag OVR files into this. You're making it way more complicated than it needs to be.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Chir View Post
I think I figured this out. Going over the docs for TFM, I stumbled across the cthresh parameter. It defaults to 9, and suggested values are from 8-12 -- I had to bump it up to 25.
Oh god no, that is the exact opposite of what you should be doing. Cthresh should be 1-2 if you want to kill all visible combing. Whatever problem you're trying to solve, you're creating an even worse one

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chir View Post
You were spot on with my QTGMC not working. It was returning a mostly black screen. Once I fixed that, the issue went away.
QTGMC shouldn't even be used in this sort of situation to begin with.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post
It depends on the episode, but you also have to watch that the titles fading in and out after the intro don't mess up the pattern detection of the underlying video during the fade.
Or, you could use a method that doesn't require any pattern-detection at all.

Code:
mpeg2source("212.d2v")

Y=nnedi3(field=-2)

A=yadifmod2(mode=1,edeint=Y).selecteven()
B=yadifmod2(mode=1,edeint=Y).selectodd()
C=Tfm(field=1,mode=0,cthresh=2,mthresh=2,clip2=A,micmatching=0)
D=Tfm(field=0,mode=0,cthresh=2,mthresh=2,clip2=B,micmatching=0)
Interleave(C,D)
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Old 4th April 2020, 23:56   #16  |  Link
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I solved that problem years ago:
You did not "solve the problem." You patched it up to your satisfaction, which is a very different thing.
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Old 5th April 2020, 00:34   #17  |  Link
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Originally Posted by wonkey_monkey View Post
You did not "solve the problem." You patched it up to your satisfaction, which is a very different thing.
I'm not even sure what that script's going to give you as the output. I'm not sure I'm curious enough to try it and see.

I mean I get the output for i60 input will be 60fps and shouldn't have combing, but beyond that I have no idea how the p24 content will be represented in the output.

I'm almost tempted to go get a DS9 DVD. Almost...
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Old 5th April 2020, 01:10   #18  |  Link
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not sure what's so hard about this topic VFR encoding are made for like ever.

VFR is one way to get the correct frame rate for all parts the other is 120 HZ which is not an optimal choice for obvious reasons.

time didn't stop:
i never used this way to archive VFR but there are simply better people to answer how to do it but it's even an example for http://avisynth.nl/index.php/TIVTC

it can't be to hard to automatically deint the parts that are detected as hybrid in stead of treating them as PsF.
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Old 5th April 2020, 03:27   #19  |  Link
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not sure what's so hard about this topic VFR encoding are made for like ever.

VFR is one way to get the correct frame rate for all parts the other is 120 HZ which is not an optimal choice for obvious reasons.

time didn't stop:
i never used this way to archive VFR but there are simply better people to answer how to do it but it's even an example for http://avisynth.nl/index.php/TIVTC

it can't be to hard to automatically deint the parts that are detected as hybrid in stead of treating them as PsF.
It's hard because both types of content are in the exact same frame. It's not some i60 and some telecined p24 content and it switches on a scene by scene or shot by shot basis.

They shot it on film, telecined the film to i60 and then composited into that i60 special effects.
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Old 5th April 2020, 08:50   #20  |  Link
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sorry still don't get the issue or what's unusually about that.

i know that the mixed part will have some motion issues that's the creators intent. so motion adaptive deint should be the way to go for that part.
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