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Old 27th February 2018, 10:58   #49261  |  Link
huhn
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and who said you can't do that with 8 bit?
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Old 27th February 2018, 11:12   #49262  |  Link
bran
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and who said you can't do that with 8 bit?
An assumption of mine. I am under the impression that I will not get the same HDR/UHD quality using/outputting 8bit since it would need to downsample/dither. Is it wrong?

The Rec 2020 color space is a range of color. It was defined in 2012 as a standard for bit depth of 10 or 12 bits for 4k and 8k TVs.
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Last edited by bran; 27th February 2018 at 11:37.
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Old 27th February 2018, 11:16   #49263  |  Link
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@bran: I get cca 15 ms rendering time with NGU sharp set to medium medium on both chroma and image upscaling and other settings as you put them, for 1080p 24fps video...NGU high is in 24 ms range, very high is @ 70+ ms)...decoder is LAV D3D11 Native...I don't have it connected to 4K display, but I use 200% zoom...I find Xbr good quality and good enough for my eyes...GPU is @40% overall, VRAM is 1.4 GB

P.S. 10 bit dithered to 8 bit (especially on 4K matrix) looks OK, i.e. on par with a full 10 bit path

Last edited by mytbyte; 27th February 2018 at 11:42.
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Old 27th February 2018, 11:39   #49264  |  Link
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10-bit is import for the source but madVR's dithering is quite good. It is very hard to tell if you are outputting 8-bit or 10-bit, from madVR or the GPU. It usually requires test patterns of some kind to even notice the change when switching back and forth.

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Just exchanged my GTX1070 for a RX580 (because nvidia only supported 8 or 12bit output, and 12bit yields banding on my TV).
12-bit is exactly the same as 10-bit if you output 10-bit with madVR, the last two bits are simply 0s. I suppose a TV could process 12-bit badly and 10-bit well but it would be strange. Does 10-bit with the 580 not have the same banding issues the 1070 at 12-bit did? Usually if the 10-bit processing is good then 12-bit looks fine too.

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Is there any specific changes I would be advised to do in madVR and/or LAV Filters when switching from nvidia to AMD? Using DX11 in LAV Filters right now as it is, DX11 non-FSE in madVR.
Nothing needs changing for AMD. Those are good options and are the same ones I use with Nvidia.
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Old 27th February 2018, 11:54   #49265  |  Link
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@asmodian; if bran doesn't use FSE in MadVR, he doesn't get 10 or 12 bit output to HDMI anyway, no?
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Old 27th February 2018, 11:54   #49266  |  Link
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An assumption of mine.
You didn't even test 8 bit? That's makes it even funnier.
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Old 27th February 2018, 12:18   #49267  |  Link
mclingo
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Originally Posted by bran View Post
An assumption of mine. I am under the impression that I will not get the same HDR/UHD quality using/outputting 8bit since it would need to downsample/dither. Is it wrong?

The Rec 2020 color space is a range of color. It was defined in 2012 as a standard for bit depth of 10 or 12 bits for 4k and 8k TVs.
Hi, this has been discussed a lot on here, i've come to the conclusion that there is no right and wrong answer as 10 vs 8bit is so close. I've chosen the 10 bit path for convenience though as it requires no templates, no switching or messing about. This is one of the best things about AMD cards for HTPC's, they are pretty much install and go as there are no issues with 3D setup and they have true 23,976 playback.

It is slightly worrying that the RX 580 struggles with NGU sharp, I was hoping it would tear through this.

I cant help feeling something has changed with either MADVR or the drivers though as I was able to use NGU sharp medium with my RX 550 up until about 2 months ago, now I can barely get NGU low for image upscale.
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Old 27th February 2018, 12:45   #49268  |  Link
huhn
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Originally Posted by bran View Post
An assumption of mine. I am under the impression that I will not get the same HDR/UHD quality using/outputting 8bit since it would need to downsample/dither. Is it wrong?

The Rec 2020 color space is a range of color. It was defined in 2012 as a standard for bit depth of 10 or 12 bits for 4k and 8k TVs.
most TV are 8 bit and you need dithering anyway.
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@asmodian; if bran doesn't use FSE in MadVR, he doesn't get 10 or 12 bit output to HDMI anyway, no?
windows 10 can do 10 bit in fullscreen windowed. and the output of the GPU doesn't care about this anyway.

amd for example is always send 10 bit if it is possible by default.
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Old 27th February 2018, 13:16   #49269  |  Link
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All HDR TV's are 10 bit
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Old 27th February 2018, 13:22   #49270  |  Link
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All HDR TV's are 10 bit
Don't believe everything you read in marketing brochures.
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Old 27th February 2018, 14:01   #49271  |  Link
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indeed, however I follow reviews closely and there doesnt seem to be any evidence of any manufacturers making false claims, although I tend only to follow the mid / higher end reviews.
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Old 27th February 2018, 14:17   #49272  |  Link
bran
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most TV are 8 bit and you need dithering anyway.
I know the debate about 8bit + FRC, however no one AFAIK has proven that my model is not 10bit. It was the flagship at the time, JS9500 FALD from Samsung. There was quite the thread over att AVSForums regarding this.

LGs current gen OLED displays?

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12-bit is exactly the same as 10-bit if you output 10-bit with madVR, the last two bits are simply 0s. I suppose a TV could process 12-bit badly and 10-bit well but it would be strange. Does 10-bit with the 580 not have the same banding issues the 1070 at 12-bit did? Usually if the 10-bit processing is good then 12-bit looks fine too.
YES I get less banding outputting 10bit from AMD than 12bit from nvidia. Especially noticeable in Planet Earth II, quite some heavy banding in the skies, that are a lot less with AMD (10b).

There are numerous topics about standalone UHD Bluray players outputting 12bit as well, resulting in banding. For example Panasonics UHD players, they received a 10bit update and all was well.

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You didn't even test 8 bit? That's makes it even funnier.
Good that you keep yourself entertained.
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Last edited by bran; 27th February 2018 at 14:28.
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Old 27th February 2018, 14:22   #49273  |  Link
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I know the debate about 8bit + FRC, however no one AFAIK has proven that my model is not 10bit. JS9500 FALD from Samsung. There was quite the thread over att AVSForums regarding this.

LGs current gen OLED displays?



YES I get less banding outputting 10bit from AMD than 12bit from nvidia.

There are numerous topics about standalone Bluray players outputting 12bit as well, resulting in banding. For example Panasonics UHD players, they received a 10bit update and all was well.
Out of interest, do you have your desktop set to 4:4:4 FULL RGB and trust you player to select the relevant colour space when required or do you use 4:2:0 for convenience as I do?
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Old 27th February 2018, 15:04   #49274  |  Link
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what are you talking about colorspaces?
yes i use full range RGB and you can do 12 bit with it so what's your point?

and why should someone use 4:2:0 and not at least 4:2:2 EVER?
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Old 27th February 2018, 15:12   #49275  |  Link
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what are you talking about colorspaces?
yes i use full range RGB and you can do 12 bit with it so what's your point?

and why should someone use 4:2:0 and not at least 4:2:2 EVER?
it should have been clear that I was asking Bran, I am acutely aware of your opinions on this matter
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Old 27th February 2018, 15:25   #49276  |  Link
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Out of interest, do you have your desktop set to 4:4:4 FULL RGB and trust you player to select the relevant colour space when required or do you use 4:2:0 for convenience as I do?
I'm always running 3840*2160 30Hz 4:4:4 Full RGB (12b nvidia and now 10b AMD) at desktop and let madVR switch refresh rate to 23.976Hz for movies/series.

madVR + MPC HC is the only player I use for video. Some youtube from time to time.
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Old 27th February 2018, 16:08   #49277  |  Link
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I'm always running 3840*2160 30Hz 4:4:4 Full RGB (12b nvidia and now 10b AMD) at desktop and let madVR switch refresh rate to 23.976Hz for movies/series.

madVR + MPC HC is the only player I use for video. Some youtube from time to time.
ah right, i use mine as web and other stuff so i have to have my desktop @ 60 hz which is why I use 420. I dont use 422 as when my TV is set to deep colour the only option I have is 420. This is because i'm using the blueray preset on my TV, the PC input setting does allow this but disables the motion abilities of the TV which are essential to me on my LG OLED EF9500 (uk 2015 model)
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Old 27th February 2018, 16:43   #49278  |  Link
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i found really good to put my desktop 4k@23 , setting 10bit output rgb 444, then i revert desktop settings to 50hz (I'm using madvr with mediaportal tv), so windows automaticalli brings rgb 444 8 bit only for 50/60 hz. Then i setup in mad vr two profiles: >24 fps use 8bit in device properties and <=24 fps use 10bit output in device properties. When madvr changes resolution windows put amd's 8 or 10 output accordingly with HDMi capabilities.

Last edited by mrmojo666; 27th February 2018 at 16:47.
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Old 27th February 2018, 16:47   #49279  |  Link
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yeah, there are lots of ways to do this, i've had it setup up a few different ways in the past but always had issue here and there, just got sick of faffing with it, my current setup is the most stable i've had it for a long time.
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Old 27th February 2018, 17:06   #49280  |  Link
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I'm always running 3840*2160 30Hz 4:4:4 Full RGB (12b nvidia and now 10b AMD) at desktop and let madVR switch refresh rate to 23.976Hz for movies/series.

madVR + MPC HC is the only player I use for video. Some youtube from time to time.
Your desktop at 30Hz 10/12bit is now introducing lag in everything from your mouse to your GUI's which is slow, awkward, non compliant with Windows desktop and definitely not up to par.
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