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Old 5th May 2020, 14:48   #59481  |  Link
shaolin95
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All this conversation and different opinions on what is wrong or right for 3D Lut, its making me think I am just going to switch to 2020 as it is in my projector and enjoy my movies
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Old 5th May 2020, 15:24   #59482  |  Link
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Originally Posted by shaolin95 View Post
All this conversation and different opinions on what is wrong or right for 3D Lut, its making me think I am just going to switch to 2020 as it is in my projector and enjoy my movies
Your projector is not rec 2020. it has its own way of mapping a rec2020 Container (from file) onto whatever gamut it does have, which is something closer to DCI-P3.

The reason we get posterization from argyll cms is when its gamut compression engine fails. This failure can be the result of many things in the chain not necessarily always the same.

This compression failure is also not simply the result of how big or small the gamut is.

I have SDR displays using a p3 and rec2020 lut, It's only 76% dci p3 and yet NO Posterization.

Smaster's observation of getting posterization tuning for rec2020 is TRUE for HIS DISPLAY. It is NOT_TRUE for all displays. Again, it's not due to how big the gamut is, it's how closely aligned the primaries are to the source color space, and the various interplays of the display chain. We have multiple devices with multiple maps.
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Old 5th May 2020, 16:49   #59483  |  Link
shaolin95
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Originally Posted by tp4tissue View Post
Your projector is not rec 2020. it has its own way of mapping a rec2020 Container (from file) onto whatever gamut it does have, which is something closer to DCI-P3.

The reason we get posterization from argyll cms is when its gamut compression engine fails. This failure can be the result of many things in the chain not necessarily always the same.

This compression failure is also not simply the result of how big or small the gamut is.

I have SDR displays using a p3 and rec2020 lut, It's only 76% dci p3 and yet NO Posterization.

Smaster's observation of getting posterization tuning for rec2020 is TRUE for HIS DISPLAY. It is NOT_TRUE for all displays. Again, it's not due to how big the gamut is, it's how closely aligned the primaries are to the source color space, and the various interplays of the display chain. We have multiple devices with multiple maps.
Yeah I read that it may do like 80% of 2020 vs almost 100% for DCI P3.
So if if it was you, how would you calibrate it for 4k movies?
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Old 5th May 2020, 17:01   #59484  |  Link
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queues are not supposed to cost performance just Vram and as long as there is enough Vram this is free.

if you think RCA is ot free as it should be please make a a screen of the OSD with it and without it.
Sure. Here's with and without denoising activated and the setting for 'activate only if it comes for free (as part of NGU sharp' is also ticked.
Clearly you see denoise in the stats chewing up 17.02ms and pushing me way over the edge.
Fwiw, turning off supersampling doesn't improve anything. This is SDR. HDR is even worse. What am I doing wrong? Thanks.

https://i.imgur.com/smDH8yK.png



https://i.imgur.com/3X9N5BW.png

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Old 5th May 2020, 17:24   #59485  |  Link
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Originally Posted by shaolin95 View Post
Yeah I read that it may do like 80% of 2020 vs almost 100% for DCI P3.
So if if it was you, how would you calibrate it for 4k movies?
Do BOTH, and look for anomalies in saturated areas. Try various rendering intents as well, you may like preserve saturation and saturation for certain movies.
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Old 5th May 2020, 19:38   #59486  |  Link
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Smaster's observation of getting posterization tuning for rec2020 is TRUE for HIS DISPLAY. It is NOT_TRUE for all displays.
Well for what it's worth in this case, shaolin95 is using a JVC as am I which use the same bulb and similar LCoS panels.

So I think there is good chance he runs into a similar issue. Something to look out for at least.

Many of us over on AV Science forum JVC calibration thread are noting the posterization with 3DLUT for BT.2020 on all our JVC projectors, but it'd fine when targeting DCI-P3.

I have seen it on other displays, but seems particularly bad on JVCs in general.
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Old 5th May 2020, 20:13   #59487  |  Link
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Originally Posted by tp4tissue View Post
Do BOTH, and look for anomalies in saturated areas. Try various rendering intents as well, you may like preserve saturation and saturation for certain movies.
Ok I am planning to work on that tonight with DisplayCAl as I suppose it my best option.

Silly question, when interpreting stats in terms of rendering and max, what is a "safe" number to see there? I am leaving a movie running now to see in 2 hours what kind of drops if any I get. It is showing like 5 hours for repeated frames, so I don't expect any issues but just in case

UPDATE:
Finished the 2.5 hour movie with one frame repeated. It was showing 5 hours but still repeated 1..guess it not a big deal much better than my starting point of repeating a frame every 30s

Last edited by shaolin95; 5th May 2020 at 23:25.
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Old 5th May 2020, 20:15   #59488  |  Link
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Well for what it's worth in this case, shaolin95 is using a JVC as am I which use the same bulb and similar LCoS panels.

So I think there is good chance he runs into a similar issue. Something to look out for at least.

Many of us over on AV Science forum JVC calibration thread are noting the posterization with 3DLUT for BT.2020 on all our JVC projectors, but it'd fine when targeting DCI-P3.

I have seen it on other displays, but seems particularly bad on JVCs in general.
Good to know. I didn't realize you have a JVC. Thanks
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Old 6th May 2020, 07:25   #59489  |  Link
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Originally Posted by shaolin95 View Post
Finished the 2.5 hour movie with one frame repeated. It was showing 5 hours but still repeated 1..guess it not a big deal much better than my starting point of repeating a frame every 30s
So what did you set exactly to achieve this result?
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Old 6th May 2020, 09:17   #59490  |  Link
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Originally Posted by SirMaster View Post
Many of us over on AV Science forum JVC calibration thread are noting the posterization with 3DLUT for BT.2020 on all our JVC projectors, but it'd fine when targeting DCI-P3.

I have seen it on other displays, but seems particularly bad on JVCs in general.
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I only happen to have files from one display handy.

https://nicko88.com/misc/NX5_gamut/

The DCI-P3 LUT causes a very, very tiny amount of posterization, small enough to not really notice normally.

The BT.2020 one causes pretty massive posterization that can't be ignored IMO.
Using your data, I have generated two BT.2020 3DLUTs for you: one is for SDR Gamma 2.2 and the other is for HDR to SDR targeting about 480 nits. Try both and let me know what is your opinion about BT.2020 LUTs now.

The LUTs are shared here.

As I analyzed your data, I found it was not a problem with Argyll that caused artifacts with BT.2020 LUTs, but the problem was with your data. Basically, the measurement data has a lot of weirdness around the display's gamut boundary region. And that is due to gamut processing done by the projector. Your projector is not doing a standard gamut mapping from BT.2020 to the native gamut, instead it is probably doing some extra processing/enhancement along with gamut mapping that is hard to understand just looking at the data. I had to process your data in a certain way to be able to create clean LUTs.

Last edited by omarank; 6th May 2020 at 09:24.
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Old 6th May 2020, 14:52   #59491  |  Link
shaolin95
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Originally Posted by omarank View Post
Using your data, I have generated two BT.2020 3DLUTs for you: one is for SDR Gamma 2.2 and the other is for HDR to SDR targeting about 480 nits. Try both and let me know what is your opinion about BT.2020 LUTs now.

The LUTs are shared here.

As I analyzed your data, I found it was not a problem with Argyll that caused artifacts with BT.2020 LUTs, but the problem was with your data. Basically, the measurement data has a lot of weirdness around the display's gamut boundary region. And that is due to gamut processing done by the projector. Your projector is not doing a standard gamut mapping from BT.2020 to the native gamut, instead it is probably doing some extra processing/enhancement along with gamut mapping that is hard to understand just looking at the data. I had to process your data in a certain way to be able to create clean LUTs.
Would you mind explaining what you would need from me in order to do the same for my JVC RS520, please?
Thank you!
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Old 6th May 2020, 15:52   #59492  |  Link
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Originally Posted by omarank View Post
I had to process your data in a certain way to be able to create clean LUTs.

Could you please elaborate on how and what Special processing did you do ?
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Old 6th May 2020, 17:14   #59493  |  Link
shaolin95
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Originally Posted by THU22 View Post
So what did you set exactly to achieve this result?
I used CRU with these timings as that is how it finally worked with my JVC
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Old 6th May 2020, 18:05   #59494  |  Link
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Would you mind explaining what you would need from me in order to do the same for my JVC RS520, please?
Thank you!
I have sent you a PM.
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Old 6th May 2020, 18:06   #59495  |  Link
omarank
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Could you please elaborate on how and what Special processing did you do ?
Well, I used a combination of calibration/color processing software and soft tools (including our own proprietary) to analyze & process the data and generate the final madVR 3DLUTs. I can’t elaborate here I am afraid.

The idea was to ensure that the problematic measurement data corresponding to the display’s gamut boundary region was not used in computing a color transform. No gamut compression was done. The intent was absolute colorimetric (with white point scaled to prevent clipping).

The point of sharing the LUTs was to prevent the spread of misinformation, unintentional though, that BT.2020 LUTs cause posterization.
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Old 7th May 2020, 00:43   #59496  |  Link
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Originally Posted by omarank View Post
Using your data, I have generated two BT.2020 3DLUTs for you: one is for SDR Gamma 2.2 and the other is for HDR to SDR targeting about 480 nits. Try both and let me know what is your opinion about BT.2020 LUTs now.

The LUTs are shared here.

As I analyzed your data, I found it was not a problem with Argyll that caused artifacts with BT.2020 LUTs, but the problem was with your data. Basically, the measurement data has a lot of weirdness around the display's gamut boundary region. And that is due to gamut processing done by the projector. Your projector is not doing a standard gamut mapping from BT.2020 to the native gamut, instead it is probably doing some extra processing/enhancement along with gamut mapping that is hard to understand just looking at the data. I had to process your data in a certain way to be able to create clean LUTs.
I tried this BT.2020 3DLUT, but it's a different kind of 3DLUT that I have not used before.

I don't use the type that goes in the hdr tab for tone-mapping since I use the dynamic tone-mapping in madVR.

I put my 3DLUT in the calibration tab. This 3DLUT cant go there under calibration, madVR says it's the wrong format.

Anyways with the tone-mapping 3DLUT the picture had almost no color, (probably because it's for 480 nit and my screen is under 100 nit?). Either way I can't even begin to judge for posterization with the 3DLUT as everything is just super flat and dim.
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Old 7th May 2020, 00:53   #59497  |  Link
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Hello

Looking for some kind of suggestion / help

Spec PC is the one in my signature
TV used for the setting is 4K HDR enabled Sony XF9005 model

My question would be, please - what's better - HDR Passthrough & Metadata being sent or the ToneMapping done by MadVR + HDR output (on or off, if it matters)

Screenshots attached from madVR with both options

Thanks a lot
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Old 7th May 2020, 02:54   #59498  |  Link
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Hello

Looking for some kind of suggestion / help
Upload images somewhere else, they won't be approved here shortly, since you have a 1080Ti madVR would be best if the TV and madVR were configured right.

*looks like approval times have gotten better

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Old 7th May 2020, 04:54   #59499  |  Link
omarank
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I tried this BT.2020 3DLUT, but it's a different kind of 3DLUT that I have not used before.

I don't use the type that goes in the hdr tab for tone-mapping since I use the dynamic tone-mapping in madVR.

I put my 3DLUT in the calibration tab. This 3DLUT cant go there under calibration, madVR says it's the wrong format.

Anyways with the tone-mapping 3DLUT the picture had almost no color, (probably because it's for 480 nit and my screen is under 100 nit?). Either way I can't even begin to judge for posterization with the 3DLUT as everything is just super flat and dim.
I shared two LUTs with you. Gamma 2.2 LUT is for Calibration tab and the other one is for HDR tab. I just checked both LUTs work just fine.

Not sure what you mean by a different kind of LUT. If you refer to the HDR to SDR LUT, it was only provided as a reference, so as to show that both types of BT.2020 LUTs (SDR and HDRtoSDR) can be posterization free. Your projector has a peak luminance of 81.2 nits (as per the data) and I targeted a brightness ratio of 6:1, so targeted 487.2 nits for tonemapping. The image should be about 6 times dimmer as compared to a flat panel having about 480 nits peak luminance. I can also create an HDR to SDR LUT targeting about 200 nits (or any other level) if needed.

You should check the Gamma 2.2 LUT in the Calibration tab anyway and if you see posterization, share the screenshots with LUT On/Off and also with your DCI-P3 LUT activated.

Last edited by omarank; 7th May 2020 at 05:27.
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Old 7th May 2020, 05:46   #59500  |  Link
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Originally Posted by omarank View Post
I shared two LUTs with you. Gamma 2.2 LUT is for Calibration tab and the other one is for HDR tab. I just checked both LUTs work just fine.

Not sure what you mean by a different kind of LUT. If you refer to the HDR to SDR LUT, it was only provided as a reference, so as to show that both types of BT.2020 LUTs (SDR and HDRtoSDR) can be posterization free. Your projector has a peak luminance of 81.2 nits (as per the data) and I targeted a brightness ratio of 6:1, so targeted 487.2 nits for tonemapping. The image should be about 6 times dimmer as compared to a flat panel having about 480 nits peak luminance. I can also create an HDR to SDR LUT targeting about 200 nits (or any other level) if needed.

You should check the Gamma 2.2 LUT in the Calibration tab anyway and if you see posterization, share the screenshots with LUT On/Off and also with your DCI-P3 LUT activated.
Ah, I apologize.

I completely didn't think about the other LUT the one you named SDR as for some reason I was thinking it was rec709 or something like that.

I hope these didn't take too long to make because I don't think I can do a real comparison as the data I posted is quite old and I have changed up how I have my projector set up since then.

That profile was created back when I ran my bulb on low and iris wide open and on a different base calibration (JVC autocal, which updates the core calibration tables)

Since then I have switched to high bulb, closed my iris to -10 (which is quite far, increasing my contrast) and re-did autocal for a new base calibration.

I don't currently use a 3DLUT due to the posterization issue I was getting and also because with autocal and a tiny bit of manual calibration adjustments within the projector (custom gamma curve for 11 point WB and CMS adjustment) I am getting something like 1-2dE at worst for all my measurements (except those colors within P3 that are outside my projector's gamut).

I would like to make a fresh BT.2020 3DLUT and see once again if I am getting the posterization and then can send you that profile to take a look at and modify and then can compare that to the stock DisplayCAL one.

I am definitely interested in how a modified 3DLUT can compare to the stock one although from the sound of it I wouldn't be able to reproduce the modifications you are doing anyways for future 3DLUT or if I generate some for friends and family/etc.
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