madVR - high quality video renderer (GPU assisted)

[James Freeman]

Originally Posted by 6233638

I just don't see why it would be so obvious when we're looking at a single +/-1 difference in 8-bit, that is a single pixel in size.

In 4-bit it's certainly going to be noticeable as +/-1 is a 6% difference when you only have 16 values per channel.
In 8-bit, the difference should be less than 0.04%.

On the subject of deinterlacing, I seem to be getting a green image when I force video-mode deinterlacing in the 87.x test builds now. (I guess this is an OpenCL related bug?)

3-bit 12.5% (100/8)
4-bit 6.25% (100/16)
8-bit 0.4% (100/256)
10-bit 0.1% (100/1024)
12-bit 0.024% (100/4096)
16-bit 0.0015% (100/65536)

Definitely exponential.
More than 10-bit at the output is a waste of processing power, for the human eye.

Deinterlacing, looks fine here.
Nvidia.

Originally Posted by Vyral

There already are guides for madVR here and there. IMHO, this one is the best at the moment because everything is explained and there are some good advices for inexperienced users.

Thanks, I am well aware of the available (very good) 3rd party guides.

What I was calling for is an official guide with the latest changes and options.
But that would be another time consuming event for madshi, so no guide till v1.0.

[6233638]

Originally Posted by James Freeman

4-bit 6.25% (100/16)
8-bit 0.4% (100/256)
10-bit 0.1% (100/1024)
12-bit 0.024% (100/4096)
16-bit 0.0015% (100/65536)

Definitely exponential.

Thanks for the correction.

Originally Posted by James Freeman

More than 10-bit is a waste of processing power.

12-bit seems to be ideal when you are looking at flat boxes side-by-side; that's the point at which most people cannot tell the difference between shades.

But when you are looking at a moving image with a single pixel-sized change, one difference in 8-bit should not really be visible at all.

[yok833]

I really think that this is a good idea to have an "expert mode" in the future to allow more flexibility and keep everything plug and play for beginners ... The very good "pop effect" introduced with A4 is easily noticeable even for "99% of the users" ( my girl friend saw it by herself )... after it is only a question of taste...

"Envoyé depuis mon GT-I9300 avec Tapatalk"

[James Freeman]

Originally Posted by 6233638

12-bit seems to be ideal when you are looking at flat boxes side-by-side; that's the point at which most people cannot tell the difference between shades.

But when you are looking at a moving image with a single pixel-sized change, one difference in 8-bit should not really be visible at all.

I agree.

"Box by Box" is not "Pixel by Pixel".
I can't even see the transition of shades in the Lagom Greyscale (0-256 greyscale) in 1:1 scaling (27" monitor).

Originally Posted by yok833

I really think that this is a good idea to have an "expert mode" in the future to allow more flexibility and keep everything plug and play for beginners ...
The very good "pop effect" introduced with A4 is easily noticeable even for "99% of the users" ( my girl friend saw it by herself )... after it is only a question of taste...

You don't say...

[madshi]

Originally Posted by 6233638

On the subject of deinterlacing, I seem to be getting a green image when I force video-mode deinterlacing in the 87.x test builds now. (I guess this is an OpenCL related bug?)

Doesn't seem to happen here. What happens if you toggle the related trade quality for performance option? Can you please create a bug entry in the bug tracker for this? Thanks.

[leeperry]

Originally Posted by madshi

Ehm, those screenshots were meant to show the subjective luma noise level differences between the monoColor and multi/oppositeColor builds, using 4bit mode to make things more obvious.

I'm talking about this one:

Originally Posted by madshi

To my eyes this looks something like 4bit, 4.5bit, 5bit and 8bit. Please note how the images with error diffusion look "crisper" than the original. This is why I'm saying that when judging the error diffusion algorithms we shouldn't aim for crispness, but for the smoothest result with the lowest noise level. That should actually bring out the original source detail the best, even though it doesn't look as crisp.

Right, I didn't pay attention to the fact that these came from the previous screenshots you posted....anyway, I'd still love to try new luma builds based on 0.97 & the NL6 random numbers that would look better in 4bit then.

Originally Posted by madshi

I agree that there have been too many test builds. But then, most test build sets came with noticeable improvements. So I think in the end it was worth it. If you compare the first OpenCL error diffusion build to either monoColor or oppositeColor, the progress has been significant, IMHO.

The progress has been tremendous and it was more than worth it, I was happy to try them and will be happy to try any new luma build

Originally Posted by madshi

FWIW, I plan on releasing one more test build set in 1-2 days, probably containing 3 (very different) new test builds. One of them is going to be "simple" ordered dithering (based on a modified/improved version of "void-and-cluster"). The 2nd one is going to be a combination of ordered dithering and error diffusion. The 3rd one is going to be an updated low-noise error diffusion algorithm. Straight ordered dithering should perform faster than error diffusion. The combination of ordered dithering and error diffusion could maybe bring another quality improvement to dither dot placement. The low-noise-alternative might be another option to select for users. These test builds will probably only be monoColor, to make testing simpler. This final test build set will decide which algorithms are going to be offered as options in madVR.

Hopefully you won't give up on 0.97 & the A4/NL6 numbers

Originally Posted by James Freeman

You don't say...

I'm sure you know what he sees better than he does himself. Maybe your 2.5K:1 non-BFI monitor is the reason why no pop seems to be occuring on your rig.

[James Freeman]

Originally Posted by leeperry

I'm sure you know what he sees better than he does himself.
Maybe your 2.5K:1 non-BFI monitor is the reason why no pop seems to be occuring on your rig.

1. Stop with the "POP", "3D", "Girlfriend Approved" stuff because it makes you/others appear less reasonable that you/others may actually be.

2. Contrast Ratio is exponential (unsurprisingly) to the human eye.
2.5k:1 to 3.5k:1 is NOT a big jump.
Not that I care, I was fine with my 850:1 Dell U2410 IPS monitor.

3. BFI (without backlight strobing) creates overshoot, especially in a slow AMVA panel (like you and I have).
Disable it when you judge anything with color (especially when your color blind).
Yes, even though you have calibrated your TV with it.

So stop being noisy about your 3.5k:1 CR & BFI, its not a privilege.

4. Get a proper 4:4:4 panel.

Then I may take your comments about detail seriously.

Originally Posted by leeperry

Hopefully you won't give up on 0.97 & the A4/NL6 numbers.

I don't think so, madshi said "new test builds".
I think it'll be among, not instead the old ones.

[Asmodian]

I finally got some time to put my computer back together to be able to test the Mono/Colored/Opposite builds myself. (I moved while working 60h weeks )

I did my testing with very clean anime in 8-bit mode. I went into testing expecting to not be able to notice the difference or to like opposite-static because of what I have read so far and the screenshots as I think I like low noise. (no offence leeperry)

To my surprise I really do think the mono builds look better while I barely notice the noise difference between dynamic and static. I like "madVR_monoColor_static.ax" the most with "madVR_monoColor_dynamic.ax" a close second. I like Colored more than Opposite too. Weather this is due to my HVS system liking a small amount of almost invisible noise or something else I am not sure but in my subjective tests I really did like monocolor dithering more when watching the same videos over. I tried switching madVR versions in different orders and watching a few different scenes as I wasn't expecting the results.

[6233638]

Originally Posted by madshi

Doesn't seem to happen here. What happens if you toggle the related trade quality for performance option? Can you please create a bug entry in the bug tracker for this? Thanks.

Done. (and marked it as a "major" bug by mistake - sorry)

Turns out it's the combination of NNEDI3 chroma upscaling (not doubling) + video mode deinterlacing that is causing it.

[leeperry]

Originally Posted by Asmodian

I think I like low noise. (no offence leeperry)

I'd love to see a low noise A4 if that's technically possible

Originally Posted by James Freeman

So stop being noisy about your 3.5k:1 CR & BFI, its not a privilege.

4. Get a proper 4:4:4 panel.

Then I may take your comments about detail seriously.

Long story short, a 27" monitor is too small for seriously evaluating video processing. Joe Kane has made this very clear several times.

FIY, here's what BFI does: http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/reviews/eizo_fg2421.htm

significant improvement in the clarity of the moving image .. The moving object is noticeably sharper and easier to track across the screen with the eye. It appears sharper and nearly all the motion blur you saw before is eliminated.

I'd suggest you go try BFI somewhere because boasting about 4:4:4 being superior when IRL movies are 4:2:0 to begin with and LCD is utterly sluggish without BFI...so much that both the picture itself and the dithering noise will be smeared all over in a big pixely jelly mess.

I can understand why you have seemingly never been able to see any pop out of that 27" Asus monitor, the rabbit hole goes a whole lot deeper than you seem willing to believe. You can expect the same PQ improvement that you experienced by recently moving from IPS IIRC

[*Touche*]

I have to say that I don't see any "pop", "3D", "it's like looking through a window", "wow, so lifelike"...differences between these builds on my calibrated >15k:1 CR 55" plasma. No offence, but it sounds alot like the infamous audiophile BS to me.

In fact, I've even accidentaly left one of the static builds active the other night and haven't even noticed until after the movie. It's only when I concentrate do I see the actual differences, and then in noise only, not esotheric properties.

[James Freeman]

Originally Posted by leeperry

I'd suggest you go try BFI somewhere because boasting about 4:4:4 being superior when IRL movies are 4:2:0 to begin with and LCD is utterly sluggish without BFI...so much that both the picture itself and the dithering noise will be smeared all over in a big pixely jelly mess.

Yes I know all about BFI, I thoroughly read the Blur Busters website, and tried it myself.
I have tried BFI with an Avisynth script (72Hz monitor in 24+BF+BF, 24+24+Bf).
I also tried rotating mechanical shutter in sync with the monitor refresh rate.

The scrolling in movies look Amazing, no doubt.

But the colors and gamma DID change.
You can't deny that fast change from black to any shade of grey, doesn't cause overshoot.
It clearly does, especially in AMVA (VA) panels.

BFI or Blacklight Strobing is a fix for you brain, it fixes "eye-tracking based motion blur".
When the object appears at a different place, but your brain expects it to be in another, you get "eye-tracking based motion blur".

BUT, when the object (dithered pixels in our case) are stationary noise, BFI means absolutely NOTHING (nothing for your brain/eyes to track), so no "Jelly Mess" as you call it.
Pixel Response Time of the panel & Overshoot DOES.
BFI creates Overshoot.

Hope you understand.


Yes, movies are 4:2:0, but the dithering is RGB (4:4:4), and your panel is 4:2:2.
Add the blur effect of a 4:2:2 panel with the BFI overshoot and you got yourself an inaccurate picture.

Originally Posted by *Touche*

I have to say that I don't see any "pop", "3D", "it's like looking through a window", "wow, so lifelike"...differences between these builds on my calibrated >15k:1 CR 55" plasma. No offence, but it sounds alot like the infamous audiophile BS to me.

WOW, 15k:1... its not a mere 3.5k:1 & BFI.... and you didn't even noticed the Static build was on....

No denying that it is... BUT be careful *Touche*, LeePerry got a user banned for this kind of comment (although it was not him this time).

[leeperry]

Originally Posted by *Touche*

I have to say that I don't see any "pop", "3D", "it's like looking through a window", "wow, so lifelike"...differences between these builds on my calibrated >15k:1 CR 55" plasma. No offence, but it sounds alot like the infamous audiophile BS to me.

In fact, I've even accidentaly left one of the static builds active the other night and haven't even noticed until after the movie.

To some ppl everything looks and sounds the same,if anything you are extremely lucky..more time for less frivolous activities, winning

Of course 6233638 would say that plasma is 4bit to begin with but I couldn't confirm as I've got no interest in plasma...those things flicker like helll to my eyes, and not just to me:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/945089/

Unlike LCD TVs, Plasma TVs flicker. This is the end-product of a design choice to create shading of colors. To do this Plasma panels use a method of strobing the pixels on and off to create the perception of shading of colors to the view.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1119016/

Now I'm considering a return due to this

http://www.tested.com/forums/home-th...lasma-flicker/

I looked around the store when I returned the set, and could see flicker on all their plasmas, all brands and models

Originally Posted by James Freeman

But the colors and gamma DID change.

Lo and behold, I run my calibrations with BFI enabled and everything's fine...you might have tried a poor BFI implementation, generalizations are never a good thing.

Originally Posted by James Freeman

BFI or Blacklight Strobing is a fix for you brain, it fixes "eye-tracking based motion blur".

Of course not, it's a backlight-driven fix for the sluggishness of the LCD panel. All roads lead to Rome, as the panel is too slow we'll hide the motion blurring artifacts.

Originally Posted by James Freeman

when the object (dithered pixels in our case) is in the exact same place (stationary), BFI means absolutely NOTHING.

Breaking news, mVR is a Video Renderer...meaning that there is motion taking place.

Originally Posted by James Freeman

be careful *Touche*, LeePerry got a user banned for this kind of comment.

I'm no mod, you are imagining things again I'm afraid.

[bacondither]

Well, DLPs and Plasmas are 1-bit native, and by using a high speed temporal(dynamic) dither(at several khz),gives an apparent bitdeph somewhere around 6-7 bits for DLP.
I am sure they are using some spatial dithering in conjunction with the latter.

[Asmodian]

Originally Posted by madshi

FWIW, I plan on releasing one more test build set in 1-2 days, probably containing 3 (very different) new test builds. One of them is going to be "simple" ordered dithering (based on a modified/improved version of "void-and-cluster"). The 2nd one is going to be a combination of ordered dithering and error diffusion. The 3rd one is going to be an updated low-noise error diffusion algorithm. Straight ordered dithering should perform faster than error diffusion. The combination of ordered dithering and error diffusion could maybe bring another quality improvement to dither dot placement. The low-noise-alternative might be another option to select for users. These test builds will probably only be monoColor, to make testing simpler. This final test build set will decide which algorithms are going to be offered as options in madVR.

This has me very interested, I liked some of the lower noise options in the first set of error diffusion builds. I will definitely give them a shot on my 27" 1440p IPS.

Originally Posted by leeperry

Of course not, it's a backlight-driven fix for the sluggishness of the LCD panel. All roads lead to Rome, as the panel is too slow we'll hide the motion blurring artifacts.

Actually this isn't the main reason BFI is so nice. It is actually retention on your retina, the light receptors have a change time and flashing black helps with motion blur, like Film, CRT, Plasma, and backlight based BFI LCD.
edit: I should have said the only reason BFI is so nice.

[madshi]

Originally Posted by leeperry

I'd still love to try new luma builds based on 0.97 & the NL6 random numbers that would look better in 4bit then.

[...]

Hopefully you won't give up on 0.97 & the A4/NL6 numbers

A4 is already 0.97.

Originally Posted by leeperry

I'd love to see a low noise A4 if that's technically possible

That would be oppositeColor...

Originally Posted by Asmodian

I finally got some time to put my computer back together to be able to test the Mono/Colored/Opposite builds myself. (I moved while working 60h weeks )

I did my testing with very clean anime in 8-bit mode. I went into testing expecting to not be able to notice the difference or to like opposite-static because of what I have read so far and the screenshots as I think I like low noise. (no offence leeperry)

To my surprise I really do think the mono builds look better while I barely notice the noise difference between dynamic and static. I like "madVR_monoColor_static.ax" the most with "madVR_monoColor_dynamic.ax" a close second. I like Colored more than Opposite too. Weather this is due to my HVS system liking a small amount of almost invisible noise or something else I am not sure but in my subjective tests I really did like monocolor dithering more when watching the same videos over. I tried switching madVR versions in different orders and watching a few different scenes as I wasn't expecting the results.

Thanks for your feedback. Some votes for monoColor coming in late in the game now.

Originally Posted by 6233638

Done. (and marked it as a "major" bug by mistake - sorry)

Turns out it's the combination of NNEDI3 chroma upscaling (not doubling) + video mode deinterlacing that is causing it.

Thx.

[sajara]

Originally Posted by *Touche*

I have to say that I don't see any "pop", "3D", "it's like looking through a window", "wow, so lifelike"...differences between these builds on my calibrated >15k:1 CR 55" plasma. No offence, but it sounds alot like the infamous audiophile BS to me.

^ And I second this entirely.

@madshi,

I've been testing oppositeColor over previous builds and my subjective opinion is that is my favorite so far.

I've tested this time in all my TV's, a 55" LED, a 32" LED, as well as my 15.4" laptop screen at 768p

Tested with blueray; B&W DVD media, several transcoded sample clips in SD and 1080p.

Now, I can only see dithering in 4bit mode. Period. In 8 bit is pretty damn impossible. Even zooming in with the magnifier is indiscernible.
So, I think madVR is making a pretty good job at it and improving at each new build.

[James Freeman]

Originally Posted by leeperry

Of course not, it's a backlight-driven fix for the sluggishness of the LCD panel. All roads lead to Rome, as the panel is too slow we'll hide the motion blurring artifacts.

You don't seem to understand the difference between BFI and Backlight Strobing.

Backlight stobing strobest after the pixel transition has already happened, so it hides the overshoot.
BFI is not backlight strobing, it does not hide the pixel transition, on the contrary, it creates it.

The transistors that driving each of the pixel elements having no fun to got from 0 to 5v every 1/120 of a second.
Especially when they are overdriven to have faster response time, thus creating overshoot.

Originally Posted by leeperry

Breaking news, mVR is a Video Renderer...meaning that there is motion taking place.

Random noise (dithering) is not a moving object for your eyes.
BFI/Strobing does nothing in terms of eye-tacking motion blur removal for pixel/noise.

[*Touche*]

Originally Posted by leeperry

To some ppl everything looks and sounds the same,if anything you are extremely lucky..more time for less frivolous activities, winning

It's not that I don't notice when something is different, or appreciate subtle improvements in audio or video, but I tend to be more critical, sceptical, scientific, down to earth with it. I have to keep in mind that some things are real and some are placebo. That is why I renamed the builds for testing and later compared the hashes to see which ones I could honestly identify.

That is not to say that I don't believe that colored builds look worse to you, but I would like more hard facts and blind tests and less of the beforementioned hard to take seriously impressions.

For further testing I think madshi should, at first, provide non-descriptic names and 8bit only, and we should try to test with real material without artificial test patterns and image manipulation to blow up the differences. That kind of scrutinizing should come after we choose favourites objectively.

Oh, and it would be fun to insert a duplicate build here and there, just to see if there will be differences between them

[DragonQ]

Originally Posted by *Touche*

It's not that I don't notice when something is different, or appreciate subtle improvements in audio or video, but I tend to be more critical, sceptical, scientific, down to earth with it. I have to keep in mind that some things are real and some are placebo. That is why I renamed the builds for testing and later compared the hashes to see which ones I could honestly identify.

Completely agree, which is why I've largely stayed out of this discussion. There is at least some *actual* difference though, which is evidenced by the reduced-bit-depth comparisons, but whether they can be objectively differentiated with normal viewing material is another thing.

By comparison, most audiophile nonsense doesn't even have a scientific basis.