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Old 26th February 2018, 20:32   #1  |  Link
musicman
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Archiving DVD's problem

Hi I'm going to be archiving DVD's for our Church, and I started with the oldest from 2005, and I noticed certain motions have jaggies. The jaggies don't go across the screen but are limited to where te motion is. I'm using Handbrake and I've tried different presets. It has to be h.264 in a mp4 container. I've experimented with deinterlacing based on some suggestions online but it hasn't fixed it. Is it even something that's fixable? Or is it because it was an old camera recording on an old dvd recorder?

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Old 26th February 2018, 20:42   #2  |  Link
LoRd_MuldeR
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This is called "interlacing". Or, more specifically, it is what happens when you resize "interlaced" material without deinterlacing it first.

Applying a deinterlacing filter is the right thing to do. But you have to be absolutely sure that you apply the deinterlacing filter on the original "interlaced" material - prior to any resizing.

Once "interlaced" material has been resized without deinterlacing it first, it is pretty much impossible to fix/undo, except by going back to the original unprocessed footage.

If you expect more help, please upload a small(!) and completely unprocessed(!) chunk from your original DVD...

See also: http://100fps.com/
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Old 26th February 2018, 20:49   #3  |  Link
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fps

I've began reading the link in your post, is this apply to NTSC? It refers to 25fps, is that what video cameras and VCR's recorded at?
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Old 26th February 2018, 20:53   #4  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by musicman View Post
I've began reading the link in your post, is this apply to NTSC? It refers to 25fps, is that what video cameras and VCR's recorded at?
Actually PAL and NTSC are obsolete analogue TV transmission standards.

In the "digital world" these standards have no meaning, except that a resolution of 720480 pixels with a framerate of 29.97 is sometimes called "NTSC" for historical reasons. The same goes for "PAL", which refers to 720576 at 25 fps.

Anyhow, interlacing can be used with "NTSC" as well as "PAL", or even "HD" footage. The frame rate doesn't really matter either. But there always are two "half pictures" stored in each "interlaced" frame.

For example, if you have an "interlaced" stream with 29.97 "interlaced" frames per second, than a "full rate" deinterlacer will output 59.94 progressive frames. Just like a 25 fps "interlaced" stream would result in 50 fps after deinterlacing...
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Old 26th February 2018, 21:40   #5  |  Link
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Also you might want to either signal the SD colorspace with the appropriate bitstream flags for NTSC content
Code:
--colorprim smpte170m --transfer smpte170m --colormatrix smpte170m
or convert the colorspace to HD specs with colormatrix mode "Rec.601->Rec.709". https://avisynth.org.ru/docs/english...olormatrix.htm Since it appears you are upscaling to HD resolution. Some DVD's are encoded at Rec.709, there are instructions in the link to see how you can find out which colorspace is used.

Last edited by Gser; 26th February 2018 at 21:51.
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Old 27th February 2018, 12:08   #6  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by musicman View Post
Hi I'm going to be archiving DVD's for our Church...
If the Church would not have enough money for storage, then who else... The IRS?

I gather these are private DVDs, thus no copyright protections of any kind. Therefore, COPY/PASTE
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Old 27th February 2018, 15:34   #7  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by musicman View Post
Hi I'm going to be archiving DVD's for our Church, and I started with the oldest from 2005, and I noticed certain motions have jaggies. The jaggies don't go across the screen but are limited to where te motion is. I'm using Handbrake and I've tried different presets. It has to be h.264 in a mp4 container. I've experimented with deinterlacing based on some suggestions online but it hasn't fixed it. Is it even something that's fixable? Or is it because it was an old camera recording on an old dvd recorder?

Thanks
Do you see the jaggies when you play your DVD via a standalone HW player + TV?
If the DVD video is interlaced and you watch it via PC+monitor without deinterlacing you will always see such jaggies or combes, even more so when you downscale the picture for viewing.

Can you upload a few seconds sample of the .vob file? Perhaps the problem is already on the DVD (poor transfer).
For archiving I would recommend to make 1:1 copies of the original DVD as Ghitulescu wrote. If you process the source "somehow" you may introduce irreversible new artefacts.

Last edited by Sharc; 27th February 2018 at 17:18.
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Old 27th February 2018, 19:43   #8  |  Link
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I've never used a VOB editor before, so let me try playing it in different set top players. I have some "regular" DVD players and I also have an Oppo 93.
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Old 27th February 2018, 20:37   #9  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by musicman View Post
I've never used a VOB editor before, so let me try playing it in different set top players. I have some "regular" DVD players and I also have an Oppo 93.
If it's really "interlaced" footage, then most likely either the DVD Player or the TV Screen will do the required de-interlacing. So if you don't see the "combing" artifacts on the TV Screen, don't be surprised

The same goes for "software" DVD players on your PC. Therefore it is very important that you look at the original footage in some editor that does not apply any kind of post-processing...

(Again: The best thing would be to provide an unprocessed chunk of the original VOB files. You may use, for example, DGSplit for this purpose - provided you have ripped the VOB's to your HDD already)
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There was of course no way of knowing whether you were being watched at any given moment.
How often, or on what system, the Thought Police plugged in on any individual wire was guesswork.



Last edited by LoRd_MuldeR; 27th February 2018 at 20:45.
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Old 27th February 2018, 22:58   #10  |  Link
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Ok, I just realized that there is no tearing when I play the DVD in my computer using Media Player HC. When I copied the .vob onto my computer and played it with the same player, it had lots of tearing.
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Old 27th February 2018, 23:42   #11  |  Link
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What do mean by tearing? MPC-HC has a lot of settings how to play a video source. It may or may not deinterlace, may blend the fields etc.
So how does it look when you play the DVD with your DVD player(s) and watch on TV?
The original source was perhaps a VHS tape which has been - more or less correctly - transferred to DVD.

Without a sample it is difficult to give you good advice.
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Old 1st March 2018, 18:51   #12  |  Link
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So just to recap, when I play the DVD in my computer using MPC-HC, there is no problem. But when I rip it using Handbrake using H.264 codec in a MP4 container, I get video lines wherever there is motion. They don't occur across the entire screen. I'd like to rip them and archive them without loosing any quality but be playable using an "average office PC or Mac."

Thanks

http://s000.tinyupload.com/index.php...95894408675023

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Old 1st March 2018, 19:53   #13  |  Link
Sharc
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Quote:
Originally Posted by musicman View Post
So just to recap, when I play the DVD in my computer using MPC-HC, there is no problem. But when I rip it using Handbrake using H.264 codec in a MP4 container, I get video lines wherever there is motion. They don't occur across the entire screen. I'd like to rip them and archive them without loosing any quality but be playable using an "average office PC or Mac."

Thanks

http://s000.tinyupload.com/index.php...95894408675023

Attachment
The video is interlaced, 720x480, 29.97 fps or 59.94 fields per second.

Quote:
... when I play the DVD in my computer using MPC-HC, there is no problem....
Because MPC-HC apparently kicks its deinterlacer or bobber in, and you see it on the monitor as progressive video without the combing artefacts.

Quote:
... But when I rip it using Handbrake using H.264 codec in a MP4 container, I get video lines wherever there is motion ....
I am not familiar with Handbrake, but I suspect that Handbrake encodes the video as interlaced, and for some reason the player does not recognize it as interlaced and plays it without deinterlacing - hence you see the combes on the PC monitor.
Try to enable a deinterlacer in Handbrake, or force the deinterlacer (or bobber) in MPC-HC so the video gets deinterlaced during playback.
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Old 1st March 2018, 19:48   #14  |  Link
LoRd_MuldeR
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So, yeah, definitely interlaced video. Here you see the "original" interlaced frame (left) and the two separated fields, stacked vertically (right):



...as you can see, the hand has moved in between the two fields (the fields are from different time indices!), which is why you get those "combing" artifacts if the fields are weaved into a single frame.
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There was of course no way of knowing whether you were being watched at any given moment.
How often, or on what system, the Thought Police plugged in on any individual wire was guesswork.



Last edited by LoRd_MuldeR; 1st March 2018 at 19:58.
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Old 1st March 2018, 19:52   #15  |  Link
StainlessS
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I dont have Handbrake installed at the moment and long time since I used it,
Looks like you are upsizing without deinterlacing, you should not do that.
I presume that there is an option to deinterlace first, try it.
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Old 1st March 2018, 19:56   #16  |  Link
LoRd_MuldeR
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musicman, here is what a script as simple as this can do to your sample
musicman_sample_v2.zip
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There was of course no way of knowing whether you were being watched at any given moment.
How often, or on what system, the Thought Police plugged in on any individual wire was guesswork.



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Old 1st March 2018, 20:01   #17  |  Link
StainlessS
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This tab (Deinterlace)



EDIT: Maybe try Deinterlace=Slower

Dont know where you would choose field order, perhaps is automatic.

EDIT: Handbrake help seems to be Offline.
Also try Preview before render.

EDIT: A forum thread on deinterlace field order (I have not read it).
http://forum.digital-digest.com/f114...p-94946-2.html

Another one:
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/...rlace-Settings

More:
https://www.google.co.uk/search?sour....0.RYJQyPAfrXk
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"Some infinities are bigger than other infinities", but how many of them are infinitely bigger ???

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Old 1st March 2018, 20:20   #18  |  Link
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musicman

I just tried Handbrake. No problem with settings like:

Filters Tab:
Detelecine: off
Deinterlace: yadif
others leave at default

Video Tab:
Framerate 29.97
Constant Framerate

You will get a deinterlace video without combes.
Good luck.
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Old 1st March 2018, 20:26   #19  |  Link
StainlessS
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharc View Post
musicman

I just tried Handbrake. No problem with settings like:

Filters Tab:
Detelecine: off
Deinterlace: yadif
others leave at default

Video Tab:
Framerate 29.97
Constant Framerate

You will get a deinterlace video without combes.
Good luck.
Yadif, guess I need a new version HandBrake, cheers for that.
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Old 1st March 2018, 20:42   #20  |  Link
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Yadif, guess I need a new version HandBrake, cheers for that.
Actually, my version HB was already v0.9.9-1, which was last for WinXP, current is v1.0.7, ie VISTA+ [EDIT: With SP2].

EDIT: HandBrake on VideoHelp:- https://www.videohelp.com/software/HandBrake
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