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28th January 2014, 04:47 | #22101 | Link | |
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NNEDI3 doubling? not a chance. even 16 neurons makes everything unplayable. i'll just stick with Jinc3 for everything for now computer specs: |
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28th January 2014, 05:30 | #22102 | Link | |
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When I set-up with those values I'm seeing a steady 29% GPU load. No image doubling (1280x720) is occurring and I see similar values to yours. If I select alt+3 (200% up-scale) while playing in MPC-HC I get 79% GPU load. If I scale the video via ffdshow with "Lanczos4Resize(1280,720)" in a simple script I still see GPU load similar to yours. That's because neither of the scaling triggers for Luma or Chroma have kicked in. Bottom-line is I open the native video (640x360) with the values set as in your test (29% GPU load for me) and then double the video window size via alt+3 (1280*720) and my GPU load jumps to 79%. Otherwise the modifications to the image quality aren't active... Last edited by MistahBonzai; 28th January 2014 at 05:35. |
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28th January 2014, 06:37 | #22103 | Link | |
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- It is dropped to 15ms with Bicubic75AR setting... (suggested by madshi. It is just enough when vector-adaptive deinterlacing is also counted for 60fps playback) - It only takes 6.2ms with pure Jinc3AR setting. Anyway this shows how powerful HD7970 is if compared to IGP/APU. ps: My card is made by Lantic. Bought it in March, 2013 and price was about US$320 --- still quite expensive as a gaming / madVR usage card. -- Core i5-3570K + Z77 + dual-ch DDR3-2400 + HD7970@925MHz Catalyst 13.12 (forced VSync ON, Vector-adaptive deinterlace mode) + Win7x64SP1 + MPC-BE 1.3.0.3 + LavFilter 0.60.1 (DXVA2) + madVR FSE (deband,angle-detect, all Jinc3AR for up-scale) Last edited by pie1394; 28th January 2014 at 06:39. |
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28th January 2014, 06:44 | #22104 | Link | |
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With all NNEDI3 2x and 4x options at 64 neurons, Jinc3AR for chroma+luma upscaling, debanding low, smooth motion off, and no trade quality for performance options checked, my Titan (@1071MHz) hits 96% watching 352x240 29.97p at 1920x1440. I am also using a 3DLUT and gamma processing, queues at 32/24/8, FSW. I will have to play around a lot to find the appropriate trade offs. I didn't expect that for a while with a Titan; until I saw all these wonderful NNEDI3 options. Great work as always, amazing. edit: I think I like Jinc3 chroma + NNEDI3 32 neuron doubling (chroma+luma) for watching 720p at 1440p, very sharp. With smooth motion on I am at 92% GPU usage and the GPU reports it is pulling 345 watts. Last edited by Asmodian; 28th January 2014 at 07:51. |
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28th January 2014, 07:53 | #22105 | Link | |
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28th January 2014, 09:09 | #22106 | Link |
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Humm it's hard to deny that a used HD7950 would really hit the spot in order to permanently force 1.2/2.4x 64neurons NNEDI
And to my eyes, two things improve the subjective pop effect on my 3500:1 Sammy TV: BFI, as there isn't motion blur smearing everything anymore and Error Diffusion as the dithering noise is not a just a veil of random noise thrown onto the picture(much like what a VGA connection looks like due to the increased noise level). I see the same sort of "pop effect" improvement with mVR's error diffusion as I was getting with SmoothL, too good to be true My only problem right now is that using PotP's GUI in 2D mode flashes black frames during the FSE/FSW transitions(that wasn't the case on XP) but PotP's D3D GUI would appear to completely alleviate this problem, so no biggy. Last edited by leeperry; 28th January 2014 at 09:18. |
28th January 2014, 09:34 | #22107 | Link |
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I may have to edit my 3DLUT now, as values near black seem to be darker than before when using error diffusion.
http://abload.de/img/error-diffusion-2uks1c.png [urlhttp://abload.de/img/random-dither-2ygsae.png[/url] Brightened: http://abload.de/img/error-diffusion-3plsex.png http://abload.de/img/random-dither-31wssj.png As you should be able to see though, with error diffusion enabled each level is much more distinct from the last. When brightened like this, 20-25 all look roughly the same with random dither. Hopefully editing my 3DLUT will not affect the results I'm seeing on a full black screen: (brightened significantly) With error diffusion enabled, black is actually solid black, which means that my display can turn off the local dimming zones rather than keeping them on at a low level. This is a significant improvement and absolutely worth the performance hit. Of course, if you don't have that problem, it may not matter, and I really hope that changing my 3DLUT values does not affect this result. I agree with cyberbeing that error diffusion does have a tendency to create patterns though, which random dither avoids. But the noise level is so much lower near black, and noise is monochrome with error diffusion, rather than being multicolored with random dither. Last edited by 6233638; 28th January 2014 at 15:26. Reason: New results http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1664865#post1664865 |
28th January 2014, 10:12 | #22108 | Link |
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Perhaps we could have some sort of anti pattern dithering whilst still allowing for this level of black performance?
20-25 are looking fantastic there! That's an awesome result which should have some significant impact in your late night viewing. |
28th January 2014, 10:17 | #22109 | Link | |
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Yes, it's a big improvement. I actually suspect that the measured points in my 3DLUT will be the same, or roughly the same as before, it's just that each level between them is much better defined now. |
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28th January 2014, 10:47 | #22110 | Link | |||||||||||||||||||||||
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If you ask for a specific model, well I don't know your exact budget. Given your needs, I guess a 7570 or 7670 should probably be fast enough. A 7750 or 7770 would be awesome, probably too fast for your needs, but with some performance headroom left for future algorithms. Of course you can also go with NVidia. If you need a silent GPU, I'd suggest that you read some reviews, so you pick a good/silent model from a specific manufacturer. In any case, pick one with GDDR5, and make sure the price/performance ratio is good. Quote:
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My best guess would be that your source video is not telecined film, but already contains those blended frames. Forced film mode only works correctly with properly telecined content. For field-blended or frame-blended sources you need to use video mode deinterlacing. It's very bad, yes that's known and expected. Quote:
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I agree that random dithering hides source banding better. Actually the original f3kdb debanding algorithm has a feature which does something very similar to madVR's random dithering, just to hide source banding. At some point I'm probably going to add an "add grain" or similar algorithm which you could then combine with error diffusion. So would it be fair to say that error diffusion is more true to the source compared to random dithering? Quote:
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Which Sammy TV is that? Can it do 4:4:4? I might be looking into getting a new monitor for my development PC. I'm tempted with misusing a TV for that. But 40" does sound a bit large. 30" would be ideal... Quote:
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------- After seeing all those NNEDI3 benchmarks I want to post a settings recommendation. I understand that you guys want to test how much your GPU can handle, so you dial up all the new settings as much as possible, and then you're a little bit let down by how slow it all gets. But most of you really do seem to go overboard with the settings IMHO. So here's my recommendation: (1) In my tests I've found little reason to enable NNEDI3 for the chroma channels. So I would recommend to leave the right side of the image doubling settings page unchecked. (2) The neuron number is more important for doubling than it is for quadrupling. I'd recommend 32-64 neurons for doubling and 16-32 for quadrupling. I wouldn't go lower than 16 for doubling, unless your GPU absolutely can't handle 32 neurons and you still prefer NNEDI3 with 16 neurons over Jinc/Lanczos. (3) When using image doubling with NNEDI3, I'd recommend to use Lanczos3 AR for "image upscaling", and not Jinc3 AR. Since NNEDI3 costs so much performance, we have to accept some compromises. Of course if you have an almighty GPU, you can dial up everything to your heart's content. But the above recommendation is what should IMHO give the best quality/performance ratio, when using NNEDI3. |
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28th January 2014, 11:19 | #22111 | Link |
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still problems with hd4000 and deint split drops first, gpu load still at 84-95 % with 87.4. with a old test 86.11 was at ~82 %, now it is at 88-95% but working.
back buffer is set to 8 and fullscreen exclusive is disabled else it isn't working on 86.11 too rest is totally default. Last edited by huhn; 28th January 2014 at 11:33. Reason: it's 87.4 |
28th January 2014, 11:26 | #22112 | Link | ||
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if (srcFps=29) and (filmMode=true) "interlaced" else "progressive" 29.97 ivtcd in film mode = progressive 29.97 in video mode= interlaced is this a bug?
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PC: FX-8320 GTS250 HTPC: G1610 GTX650 PotPlayer/MPC-BE LAVFilters MadVR-Bicubic75AR/Lanczos4AR/Lanczos4AR LumaSharpen -Strength0.9-Pattern3-Clamp0.1-OffsetBias2.0 Last edited by turbojet; 28th January 2014 at 12:40. |
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28th January 2014, 11:32 | #22113 | Link | |
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i highly recommend Philips tvs for pc usages they normally all support unlimited rgb in pc mode on >all< refresh rates. |
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28th January 2014, 11:34 | #22114 | Link |
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Profiling works nicely here, but keyboard shortcuts for profiles don't work for "processing" and "rendering" settings. The shortcuts work only for "scaling algorithms".
I am using a profiling script for smooth motion too, and I found that the profile which enables smooth motion, when enabled, doesn't consider the option selected in the smooth motion settings page and always enable smooth motion. I was wondering how to use "command line to execute when this profile is activated/ deactivated". Can someone please show me an example of using this functionality? |
28th January 2014, 11:41 | #22115 | Link |
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Just as a heads-up madshi:
Last night (at 4 oīclock in the evening/morning!) Blaire from 3dcenter already contacted ManuelG of Nvidia, who requested a step by step guidance of the problem. Since Iīve linked your last and more detailed post to him, he was actually able to reproduce the problem and gave all required information to ManuelG in step by step form. They are looking into it right now. Only thing left now is to look for a new beta driver, where they fix the problem, but I guess Blaire will let me know soon enough. Going to keep you updated on this as soon as I get some feedback. |
28th January 2014, 11:45 | #22116 | Link |
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MadVR 87.3. ATI 7750, driver 13.12, Win7 SP1 x86. OS and video driver are set to high perfomance.
NNEDI3 image doubling: dropouts ~30% OpenCL error diffusion: dropouts ~30% (only works fine for small size videos without upscaling to full screen) NNEDI chroma upsampling: dropouts ~30% (this one worked fine for me in 87.1b, btw) Timings are fine, its just present queue goes to zero. Need more fine tuning of the new CCC 13.12 maybe. |
28th January 2014, 11:53 | #22117 | Link | |
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When I hardware calibrated my Eizo CG243W and checked that pattern after calibration in madVR, I also wondered why at some certain brightness levels (especially the lower ones) it seemed to miss a lot of differentiation, when outside of madVR, everything was perfectly fine. At that point I actually thought that I must have been doing something wrong with the madVR settings, but doing it again carefully didnīt change the outcome. Back then I reported my results, but I guess it was quite hard for others to understand what exactly I was seeing, since you need to have a screen that is able to perfectly differentiate levels in the first place. I am really surprised by these results now. If that translates well to the actual picture, this could mean a lot more defined and natural apperance of the source and also a lot more details in darker (and brighter?) areas. And it would also mean that every good calibrated LCD/CRT would benefit a lot from it. It would actually make it even more worth it to calibrate your screen now than it already has been before. Are we really sure that this is only the result of random dithering vs. error diffusion? And what are the reasons for this? Why should dithering change differentiation steps in the brightness levels? Yes, it is kinda expected, that less noise would lead to a lower noise floor, and as such, would lead to somewhat more perfect and darker blacks (and probably also whites) but why would it suddenly change the differentiation between the levels? Wouldnīt there have to be some gamma change involved to come to this result? I donīt understand this at all. Could this be a result of your 3DLUT only, which needed to compensate for the shortcomings of your display? But why did I see the same thing and outside of madVR, everything is fine. Thatīs confusing me to no end right now. But I think I really need to test this to see it for myself. Last edited by iSunrise; 28th January 2014 at 12:16. |
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28th January 2014, 12:11 | #22118 | Link | ||
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So is there any way to avoid the black frames flashing during FSE/FSW transitions? This is happening whenever I want to open a context menu and that never occured on XP.
All this said, FSE was mandatory on XP but isn't it a bit of overkill on W7? The OS knows how to handle VSYNC for a change. Quote:
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It's the Sammy UE32F5000, it does support 4:4:4 but then no more BFI so it becomes blurryland and there's the usual panel and backlight homogeneity lotteries....luckily you can check the panel maker in the factory menu, there's a thread on that matter on AVS if you can find the patience of trying your luck: Samsung Panel Version Thread Many ppl claim that the Sammy panels are better but not a single one shows any measurement, all I know is that the AUO panel provides 0.4 cd/mē black, acceptable blurring once BFI is enabled and 3500:1 native CR. The best choice for 4:4:4 BFI and 5K:1 native CR is that new UVēA monitor from EIZO but it costs 500€ and it's 24" only. This Sammy TV will fit the bill until the chinese flood the market with OLED AFAIK these don't provide any kind of R/G/B gain/offset settings so you'll have to use a CLUT on the PC in order to reach D65. Last edited by leeperry; 28th January 2014 at 12:13. |
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28th January 2014, 12:24 | #22120 | Link | |
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Hey Madshi, was wondering how a 2x upscale with Jinc3ar + 2x upscale with nnedi then a downscale with Lanczos3 would look in MadVR. Basically getting that nnedi sharpness and antialiasing without too much thinning happening.. could be a nice blend of both. Do you think it's worth having a preupscaling option? I've played a round a bit in Avisynth with pre Jinc and Lanczos upscaling and from what I see things look quite nice when set up before nnedi. Thoughts? |
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direct compute, dithering, error diffusion, madvr, ngu, nnedi3, quality, renderer, scaling, uhd upscaling, upsampling |
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