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Old 20th December 2016, 00:09   #1  |  Link
spoRv
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Ideas for a new audio video container

First of all: do we need another, new, audio video container? Well, before I thought about these things, I didn't think so...

There are some features which are not implemented (yet?) that could be useful, in particular for movies, and their avid collectors.

Let's start with the obvious points:

1) It should be open source

2) It must be able to contain every open source audio video subs codecs (was: It must be able to contain every major audio video subs codecs - and possibly also the less known ones, lossless too)

3) Everything should be contained in one file

and now the new features:

4) Menu support: I'm aware that MP4 has a basic menu support, and MKV has plans to introduce it - and almost everything that a menu do could be done via the player interface; but a DVD-like kind of menu could still be a welcome addition; it could be quite simple and must be compatible with software and hardware players - at the contrary of what happens with BD menus

5) Multiple luma/chroma planes: different possible combinations of luma and chroma planes that could be used, for example, to have different color gradings, or different contrast/brigthness - like Mad Max: Fury Road Black & Chrome edition, that is NOT simply the color version desaturated... I know that it's possible to do something similar using different video tracks, but with this method, to have a movie with two color gradings will take twice the space, while with 1 luma and 2 chroma planes it will take only 33% more space (at max, 4:2:0)

6) Matte mask: to allow an open matte, and a letterboxed version in the same file - I know for sure that is possible to do that via a modified subtitle, but it's always a trick; it will be great to have a "matte" option in the proper menu, and in the software settings

7) Video objects: a sort of seamless branching, but aimed to eventually replace just part of the image - for example, main titles are overlaid on the movie, and use the same language of the selected audio track, or allow to add or replace characters, vehicles, monsters etc. - like Jabba in EP4...

8) Joint audio/subs/titles/branch actions: if the user select a given language, a given subtitle track (for example forced) are selected, along with the eventual proper titles, credits, shots

9) Discrete dialogs: the main track is without dialogs, and they are added "on the fly" on the right channels; so every track for a different language will contain only dialogs, and the size could be greatly reduced; its also possible to have more sound only tracks, and more effects track.

10) Seamless branching and angles: present on DVD and BD, don't know if any single file container has implemented them yet; great opportunity to have two or more cuts on the same file; combined with different luma/chroma planes, we could have, for example, a theater cut, and a director's cut with added/cut scenes, different contrast and color grading

11) Audio or video random branching: allowing to play a certain shot/scene at random; an interesting way to watch a movie that will be never the same every time; for example, selecting different takes of the same shot, or characters, or just dialog.

I don't know if some (of all) of these features are possible, but I think so; if they will be implemented, the way we could watch a movie will certainly be changed...

Of course one could also think that studios will never adopt this container; they will not lose the chance to release multiple times the same title with just a slightly different color grading, improved master, new audio mix... but I think they will sell more if the latest edition will include all the previous ones, all in just one file!

Utopia?

Last edited by spoRv; 20th December 2016 at 11:11.
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Old 20th December 2016, 00:57   #2  |  Link
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Utopia?
Utopia.
A product of Stark Industries if he gave up being Iron Man. Wayne Tech if he was a journalist.
Or something from my fanfiction: SparkTech Corperation (which is actually an evil tech company).
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Old 20th December 2016, 01:27   #3  |  Link
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Sounds more like hell then utopia to me. So many obscure features that certain users would cry for to be implemented but 99.9% of people never use or care for, plus require any player to be redesigned from the ground-up to support since it breaches a whole bunch of typical layering/abstraction concepts.

Also, some of those really go beyond the container domain - it couldn't realistically do it without a new audio/video codecs to also support parts of those, or some rather hacky methods to shoe-horn existing codecs into those features (which would make it even more hell).
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Old 20th December 2016, 02:13   #4  |  Link
mariush
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Seems suited for this.

mkv is good enough for me. btw in case you haven' heard, there's also MXF https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Material_Exchange_Format

... let's not invent something else more complicated ...
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Old 20th December 2016, 02:49   #5  |  Link
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«All Containers Suck»

https://codecs.multimedia.cx/?p=676

Off-Topic: if there was a TwoCC for the Opus codec,
then we could use its sctrictly-CBR flavor in .AVI files

But of course I know I'm asking for too much
Everybody knows that the OGG container is all that matters
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Old 20th December 2016, 08:20   #6  |  Link
Jamaika
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mariush View Post
[img]
mkv is good enough for me. btw in case you haven' heard, there's also MXF https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Material_Exchange_Format

... let's not invent something else more complicated ...
On the market is the great amount of utopian function containers, which don't support the players. Why does mov not support VPX? Because companies do want to have nothing in common with each other. So, it creates new creations. Why nobody wants BPG? Because no one wants to pay patents or already has 10 other containers.
Secondly, even the container matroska by some companies is unacceptable. Is considered a pirate. So some of the function lost, for ex. crop.
Thirdly, you want to create another utopia. Read about these containers, which have not been implemented. Two years ago he was a great advertisement container MOX.
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/mox-file-format#/
www.fnordware.com/downloads/MOX_Proposal.pdf
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Old 20th December 2016, 08:54   #7  |  Link
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A standard can only become a standard if it can be enforced upon everyone.

An old example is the Red Book (CD-ROM standard etc etc). Although the standard allowed certain implementations, Microsoft decided to go her way, incompatible with the old standard. Thus, the new standard, Joliet, replaced the "standard" standard, Romeo, almost nobody remembers its nickname.

As I use hardware players, I know that it took about 20 years until these started to support eg FLAC (in addition to MP3), or MKV (in addition to AVI). In 20 years from now few people around here can benefit from the new, even perfect, standard, and for how long (life expectancy ).

Besides menus in my very very humble opinion are an unnecessary evil. I have seen so many holiday home movies, and no one, not a single one, had chapters placed by hand, where they belong, instead of the "standard 5 minutes" automatically generated ones.
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Old 20th December 2016, 09:54   #8  |  Link
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@Jamaika: MOX looks more like a quick (silly) hack to mxf polished by some open-source-ness.

p.s. Well, I shouldn't be to "smart", I still don't actually understand why mxf is needed... (All I know is that I constantly get mxf files with 8 channels of mono audio of which only first two are used and Adobe certainly doesn't know that they are supposed to be 1=L, 2=R)

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Old 20th December 2016, 11:28   #9  |  Link
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OK, changed point 2 to have only open source codecs; with this, at least it should be possible to avoid legal problems...

The fact that just 0.1% of people would be interested: I could agree. But if it works, and people begin to use it, maybe it could be used by, let's say, 0.2%...

About tecnical aspects: don't know if any open source video codec allow to store just single plane video track; but some of the other points could be achieved using avisynth; if an avisynth script could be used to do some tasks, in real-time using modern CPUs, then the whole container could be built around this; to be "just" an avisynth specialized player, which could interpret some tailor-made commands - oversimplified, something like "if user click on button A, then merge luma 1 with chroma 1; if button B, then merge luma 1 with chroma 2". Is it still impossible?

Well, this is not a philosphical thread; I don't want to say "this must be the best/final/ultimate/(place your favourite superlative here) container"; if this could be done (including all, or some, of the features) it's always an alternative. Then, if it will be supported and "survive", it's another story...
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Old 20th December 2016, 11:52   #10  |  Link
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Originally Posted by smok3 View Post
Well, I shouldn't be to "smart", I still don't actually understand why mxf is needed...
Here is a simple politics. Buy Sony camera, accessories Sony, Sony editor (now Magix) is our MXF container will work. The rest doesn't interest us, it has to adapt. They changed the politics of XAVCS, but which the container supports Adobe RGB, or transfers the parameters of the camcoders or track GPS.
http://www.sony.com/electronics/cybe...specifications
What is it RAW standard for manufacturers? Each manufacturer has a different container for your software. Here ffmpeg doesn't help.
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MKV (in addition to AVI).
MKV (in addition to BluRay).

Last edited by Jamaika; 20th December 2016 at 12:01.
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Old 20th December 2016, 11:59   #11  |  Link
hubblec4
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I think all/most of your points could be realized with Matroska.

to 4.)
Menu in Matroska is more or less ready!! The problem is ever the player/splitter which must handle the menu structure.
An old version of VLC supports the Matroska-DVD-Menu-System.


to 10.)
This is a very easy step for Matroska.
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Old 20th December 2016, 12:09   #12  |  Link
Jamaika
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to 10)
This is a very easy step for Matroska.
These functions are already, but not implemented in player. Will they be made, eg. with the new codec AV1 which is webm. I doubt it.
https://www.matroska.org/technical/specs/index.html
Even you can add as metadata.
What is with the scaling Matroska in VLC? I read the information, that since this isn't the standard that are dead functions.
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Old 20th December 2016, 12:21   #13  |  Link
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These functions are already, but not implemented in player.
VLC has this on board. For other players you need Haali or LAV Splitter.
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Old 20th December 2016, 12:28   #14  |  Link
Jamaika
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I'm sorry. I have the latest MPC-HC and LAVsplitter. I don't see info colormatrix in player, splitter or mediainfo {--colour-matrix 0:1}
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Old 20th December 2016, 12:28   #15  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghitulescu View Post
A standard can only become a standard if it can be enforced upon everyone.

An old example is the Red Book (CD-ROM standard etc etc). Although the standard allowed certain implementations, Microsoft decided to go her way, incompatible with the old standard. Thus, the new standard, Joliet, replaced the "standard" standard, Romeo, almost nobody remembers its nickname.
You sure about that?
Red Book = CD-DA
Yellow book = CD-ROM

My understanding is the official CD-ROM file system is ISO 9660. Joliet is an extension of ISO 9660, and backwards compatible. It's not the only one.
Rock Ridge
Apple ISO 9660 Extensions
El Torito
ISO 13490
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Old 23rd December 2016, 10:37   #16  |  Link
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You sure about that?
Red Book = CD-DA
Yellow book = CD-ROM

My understanding is the official CD-ROM file system is ISO 9660. Joliet is an extension of ISO 9660, and backwards compatible. It's not the only one.
Rock Ridge
Apple ISO 9660 Extensions
El Torito
ISO 13490
Wow! Someone reads wikipedia and considers him smart - well, wiki may be smart but it shows only one aspect of this issue, written by guys that saw the things ex post facto, id est from today back to the past.

ISO 9660 provided already support for an additional extension, like Joliet. The trouble is that Microsoft did not care or considered it somehow not convenient. So they decided to implement it by ignoring those mechanisms set by ISO9660 and put Joliet onto ISO9660 in a different manner. They bet on the fact that in the consumer world, MS-DOS and MS-Windows were already deeply anchored in, and consequently the manufacturers had to follow these new rules or perish.

In fact Microsoft has a history of setting standards (internal) with a view to the future (like Parameter A - reserved for a future use - set to 0) then drafting a new standard completely ignoring the former one. One case here is the WAV format.


The whole point was that a format is a strong as it can be implemented both in media and in players. MS flexed her muscles and made it. AVI needed a long time time before the hardware players could play it, but this only happened after Macrovision took the matter in hands and issued specs and licences. FLAC eventually entered the hardware world because it's stable and the base of users now giant (rivalling with MP3 users). MKV support is rudimentary - mainly because this "standard" moves - the specs are continuously amended.

To MKV is only of a restricted importance because it can store multiple and various streams of A/V/S in a smaller place than the equivalents (rivals??) M2TS, TS, MP4.
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