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Old 5th October 2019, 04:02   #57561  |  Link
Asmodian
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The chroma quality set there is automatically matched to the luma quality, no need to change it specifically. If you leave it on "let madVR decide" (recommended) madVR will use the same selection as luma, however for the chroma component of NGU image upscaling "very high" actually uses NGU medium for doubling and low for quadrupling. The only thing to tune is possibly turning down the chroma quality a bit if you are almost able to run luma on high or very high, so setting chroma to medium or low might allow a higher luma setting.

The chroma setting there is less important than the 'chroma upscaling' option.
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Old 5th October 2019, 09:32   #57562  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Grimsdyke View Post
@ Madshi.
When I try to play a file with build 87 my TV turns black and then reports no input signal !! After turning off and on the TV MPC-BE has loaded the file but with wrong refresh rates, etc.
Build 86 works perfectly fine.
This problem is unfortunately still there even in the latest test build 91. I don't have an account at AVS so if anyone could alert Madshi of this issue it would be much appreciated.
(And, of course, if Madshi then wishes that I should register there for better/faster bug fixing I would do this.)
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Old 5th October 2019, 09:56   #57563  |  Link
Manni
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Originally Posted by Grimsdyke View Post
This problem is unfortunately still there even in the latest test build 91. I don't have an account at AVS so if anyone could alert Madshi of this issue it would be much appreciated.
(And, of course, if Madshi then wishes that I should register there for better/faster bug fixing I would do this.)
You should definitely register on AVS and leave feedback in the thread there explaining your issue as precisely as possible, so that madshi can get more details from you if needed.
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Old 5th October 2019, 17:21   #57564  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Asmodian View Post
This is a bit of a misunderstanding or over complicating setup or something.

For 1:1 2160p content luma is just as important as it always is. For upscaling cropped UHD (e.g. 2030p or something) you still want to prioritize luma quality over chroma. If you are not scaling luma at all then setting image upscaling to NGU AA very high will not take any GPU power, so you can set chroma upscaling to a higher quality option in this case. However, there is no reason to set luma upscaling to Lanczos 3 or something. Just set the trigger for doubling to 1.5x and quadrupling to 3x and configure 'if any (more) scaling needs to be done' as desired.

For 1:1 <2160p content. Again disabling quadrupling is not important for 1080p -> 2160p, madVR is already not going to use quadrupling for that. Disabling doubling for 540p makes no sense. Doubling twice is higher quality than direct quadrupling and NGU AA does not support direct quadrupling anyway. If your quadrupling is set to direct quadruple then doubling is not used so there is no need to specifically disable it (not that you can anyway).

For 720p I do like quadrupling, so I set activate quadrupling to 3.0x. This allows 720p and below to be quadrupled while anything higher than 720p, up to 1440p, is doubled and anything above that is only upscaled with Jinc AR (or as configured), and as always - only if needed.
I wanted to thank you for taking the time to detail this for me.

Setting the trigger for doubling to 1.5x and quadrupling to 3x allowed me to bump all the settings to 'very high' for NGU AA Luma 2160p 60fps & 24fps profiles. I achieved Chroma NGU AA 'high' for 2160p 24fps & NGU AA 'low' for 60fps.

Setting the trigger for doubling to 1.5x and quadrupling to 3x for my 1080p (not sure those are correct for 1080p >2160p) profile yielded NGU Sharp 'medium' Luma doubling & direct quadruple 'very high' with any more scaling set to Jinc AR. Chroma is at NGU Sharp 'High'. I can still apply the denoising algo which is important for some of my compressed rips.

Do you consider these settings more correct now using my little GTX 960 4GB? Thanks again for the tips.
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Last edited by brazen1; 5th October 2019 at 17:24.
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Old 5th October 2019, 20:13   #57565  |  Link
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Originally Posted by nevcairiel View Post
This is only true if you can make use of the better black values, which means you need a pitch-black environment. Gaming screens and gaming setups, which is what we're talking about here right now, are not setup for that.

Also, the screen in question is not OLED. Context is important.
There is no User-determined context for HDR

HDR stipulates a darkened environment for viewing.

The guess work is taken out, if you want to view HDR TO SPEC, it has be a near dark room.. I forgot the exact number , something like 5cd/m^2

So from the perspective of FULLY respecting the director's intent.

THERE IS ONLY 1 way to view HDR, and that is in a Blackened room.

Since that is the case in writing, OLED and the Upcoming LMCL should be the only endpoints. All existing 1000 nit LCDs can GTFO.

I'd say anything above 300nit LCD side is plenty awful already.
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Last edited by tp4tissue; 5th October 2019 at 20:25.
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Old 5th October 2019, 20:23   #57566  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Asmodian View Post
I prefer NGU AA for chroma, chroma is usually not super detailed anyway and AA results in a cleaner chroma channel.
NO it is not, It is impossible to tell the difference between ANY of the chroma choices at real viewing distances in a normal image.

The only way to see any difference whatsoever for chroma is with your nose up against the TV, while flipping back and forth on high contrast edges.
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Old 5th October 2019, 20:36   #57567  |  Link
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Originally Posted by tp4tissue View Post
NO it is not, It is impossible to tell the difference between ANY of the chroma choices at real viewing distances in a normal image.
Ok.
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Old 5th October 2019, 21:04   #57568  |  Link
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Originally Posted by DMU View Post
Download "source" and comparison. AMD HDR vs TV player.
I plan to investigate this a bit further and more thoroughly (including the use of a DSLR instead of a smartphone camera) at a later date but here is an example of under-saturated HDR colors with AMD (-> see the attachments).
When the AMD output looks like this the TV's OSD info banner does not list Rec2020 (though no Rec709 or other standard either, the list is just shorter) whereas Rec2020 appears with nVidia and also with AMD when it happens to function as expected (nVidia seems to be reliable nowadays while the AMD is a random coin flip, sometimes it's fine, other times it's bad, I don't have enough data to tell what could cause this if there is any specific trigger).
And yes, now I am aware DXVA2 is broken but that "only" causes banding (a lot with AMD, a little with nVidia), not color gamut mismatch. I switched to D3D11 decoder on both systems by now.
NV HDR - AMD HDR

Last edited by janos666; 5th October 2019 at 23:03.
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Old 5th October 2019, 21:10   #57569  |  Link
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@janos666: Please uploasd files to a filehoster, because we can not open the files uploaded direct here:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1wdG...ew?usp=sharing
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Old 6th October 2019, 00:26   #57570  |  Link
tony359
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Hi there,

I have a question about MadVR and HDR. My projector is an Epson 9300, haven't really played with HDR much yet. Tonight I realised that with the latest nVidia drivers the projector switches to HDR when I play HDR (yay!) but when I go into full screen it goes back to SDR. Exclusive mode is disabled.
I read of people complaining of black screen when in full screen: I have picture but it goes back to SDR.

I am using MPC-HC 1.8.8, Windows 10 1903, nVidia drivers 431.70 and projector is directly connected to VPR.

Any help please?

Since I'm here, another unrelated question: if I play some older videos (in my case a 720x480 video), picture is not upscaled to full screen. What am I missing?

Thanks all!!
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Old 6th October 2019, 00:27   #57571  |  Link
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@janos666
I look forward to your research. Here are some more photos (oversaturation vs undersaturation) for comparison. True (built-in TV player) somewhere in the middle. AMD driver, which affects the color - 19.5.1. But if you install it under Windows 1903, the HDR does not work at all (the image will be dark).
Please tell me your photos of which movie? And what time code? Can you give a link or upload somewhere?
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Last edited by DMU; 6th October 2019 at 03:48.
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Old 6th October 2019, 02:42   #57572  |  Link
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Originally Posted by DMU View Post
@janos666
I look forward to your research. Here are some more photos (oversaturation vs undersaturation) for comparison. True somewhere in the middle. AMD driver, which affects the color - 19.5.1. But if you install it under Windows 1903, the HDR does not work at all (the image will be dark).
I mean, if you're not using a 3Dlut, Nothing is where it should be anyway. So these comparisons are m00t. there's no reference for you to say , this looks oversaturated or undersaturated, you simply can't know that.

Your display could be pulling on red more than blue, and if you adjust saturation, it's drawing all the colors in a direction that's already skewed.

Again, you're entitled to an opinion of the image, but it's in reference to your visual taste and NOT to what the data actually intended.

If you care about ( the right ) Color, get an xrite, w/ 3dlut correction, this is a non-issue.
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Old 6th October 2019, 05:15   #57573  |  Link
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Can't figure out why some 4K HDR remuxes have a stutter during pan scenes in fullscreen (exclusive and non-exlcusive). If I don't full screen, it's smooth. Claims repeated frames every 8 minutes, and my 2080Ti isn't even at 50%. No dropped frames...

EDIT: It's caused by having MadVR set refresh rate to 24hz. I tried setting 2160p23 and 2160p24 but both result in a slight stutter. Leaving my LG OLED in 60hz results in smooth, jutter free, motion during pans and much less blur. 24hz playback should be superior though? Any ideas?

Last edited by saracas; 6th October 2019 at 05:42.
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Old 6th October 2019, 08:34   #57574  |  Link
arcspin
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Try setting present frames in advance to 1. That has fixed the issue for many. Using D3D9 presentation with 8-bit RGB output rather than D3D11 presentation has also fixed the issue for others

Sent from my SM-N975F using Tapatalk
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Old 6th October 2019, 11:48   #57575  |  Link
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Originally Posted by tp4tissue View Post
I mean, if you're not using a 3Dlut these comparisons are m00t [...] get an xrite
Could you please stop derailing discussions like this every time?
There's no point using a meter if people can't first correctly setup their graphics pipeline to get it to at least display in the most accurate existing mode, which is what is being discussed here. 3DLUTs are for correcting inaccuracies in the display, not massive symptoms of bad configuration of the source.
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Old 6th October 2019, 13:04   #57576  |  Link
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Originally Posted by DMU View Post
AMD driver, which affects the color - 19.5.1. But if you install it under Windows 1903, the HDR does not work at all (the image will be dark).
Please tell me your photos of which movie? And what time code? Can you give a link or upload somewhere?
'Mortal Engines' BD, close to the begging but I don't consider this a really great test case, I just happened to have this open at the time I noticed something was off (I started watching it but stopped there).

I have 19.9.3 and 436.51 installed now (respectively on the two machines) with Win10 1909. I think the main issue is an HDMI metadata error (the important part is the TV's OSD banner with the signal info): NV HDR - AMD HDR - AMD Win10-HDR. Windowed/exclusive doesn't make a difference with AMD HDR (I also tried turning the Game Bar off on the AMD system for this test).

Quote:
Originally Posted by tp4tissue View Post
I mean, if you're not using a 3Dlut, Nothing is where it should be anyway. So these comparisons are m00t. there's no reference for you to say , this looks oversaturated or undersaturated, you simply can't know that.

Your display could be pulling on red more than blue, and if you adjust saturation, it's drawing all the colors in a direction that's already skewed.

Again, you're entitled to an opinion of the image, but it's in reference to your visual taste and NOT to what the data actually intended.

If you care about ( the right ) Color, get an xrite, w/ 3dlut correction, this is a non-issue.
Well, I do have an i1Pro2 and an i1d3. Just so you know, I never cared to look at the colors with movie content on the AMD system before I noticed the strange readings in CalMAN (how the HDR mode seemed to be limited to Rec709 colors) during my last calibration attempts. Since that software is tied to a hardware ID I choose to install it on my AMD notebook (for flexibility) but I normally watch movies with the nVidia based PC (the TV is my PC monitor). That's when the comparisons started. After that I realized I can run madTPG on the nV PC while CalMAN is still running on the AMD notebook. That way I could finish the AutoCAL process with sane results.

On top of that, while using any calibration, no matter how bad, the same source should produce the same colors. The relative comparison makes some sense in this case anyways.

I can't get a decent HDR calibration done with the AMD notebook as a source device if it distorts the colors and limits the gamut to Rec709. You can surely agree with that.

Last edited by janos666; 6th October 2019 at 18:18.
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Old 6th October 2019, 18:33   #57577  |  Link
saracas
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Originally Posted by arcspin View Post
Try setting present frames in advance to 1. That has fixed the issue for many. Using D3D9 presentation with 8-bit RGB output rather than D3D11 presentation has also fixed the issue for others

Sent from my SM-N975F using Tapatalk
Thanks that seems to fix it.

Last edited by saracas; 6th October 2019 at 18:36.
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Old 6th October 2019, 23:19   #57578  |  Link
Alexkral
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Originally Posted by Asmodian View Post
The chroma quality set there is automatically matched to the luma quality, no need to change it specifically. If you leave it on "let madVR decide" (recommended) madVR will use the same selection as luma, however for the chroma component of NGU image upscaling "very high" actually uses NGU medium for doubling and low for quadrupling. The only thing to tune is possibly turning down the chroma quality a bit if you are almost able to run luma on high or very high, so setting chroma to medium or low might allow a higher luma setting.

The chroma setting there is less important than the 'chroma upscaling' option.
Just curious, is there any good reason for this? I mean, it seems equally important to me. The same would go to luma, not that madVR can do it but for 540p it seems to me that it should not be very different upscale to 1080p with Lanczos and then double with NGU, than double with NGU and then upscale to 2160p with Lanczos. Even the first option seems better because NGU would be doing most of the work.
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Old 6th October 2019, 23:40   #57579  |  Link
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The key point to understand is that upscaling does not increase detail and introduces artifacts. After upscaling each pixel represents less detail compared to the source pixels, so GPU effort is much better spent on earlier scaling steps. As you increase the resolution each individual pixel becomes less and less important.

You want NGU to start with the source pixels, not after lanczos, so it can preserve maximum detail and avoid upscaling artifacts. The second doubling step is much less important than the first.

I like using NGU high for chroma upscaling (the first doubling step for chroma) but using NGU medium for the second and especially NGU low for the third is much less important. By the third doubling doubling step I am forced to agree with the sentiments of tp4tissue, there really is no practical difference between using NGU high and lanczos3 or bicubic.
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Last edited by Asmodian; 6th October 2019 at 23:43.
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Old 7th October 2019, 00:59   #57580  |  Link
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Thanks, perfectly understood.
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