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Old 21st March 2018, 23:33   #49701  |  Link
e-t172
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ryrynz View Post
Simple MadVR options..

"Should I enable X?"
"Can you see a difference enabling X?"

Repeat ad nauseam.

Think we've covered this about half a dozen times already.
That's not a good answer though. Checking if an option makes a visible difference can take a lot of time, because ideally you want to check a variety of different scenes, maybe even different formats of various bitrates. This gets very time-consuming, especially if you want to do that for several options or for several possible settings of a given option. It would be way more useful to do something more universally applicable, like conducting surveys to see if a given option makes a difference for most people, and if it does, how big the difference is. This could provide reasonable "guidelines" for people to follow.

Honestly I think the "what don't you try it" answer is a bit rude IMHO. It provides no information, and presumably if the user had the time and motivation to do the comparison themselves they would already have done so. If you don't know the answer, then don't post.
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Old 21st March 2018, 23:36   #49702  |  Link
Manni
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There is actually a bit of a trick when extending the bitdepth of a full range signal, you fill the new bits with the leading bits of the pixel, ie. like this for 8 to 10-bit:
/snip
Thank Nev, glad that I was right to err on the side of caution (when you don't know, don't assume is my motto). I've learnt my lesson
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Old 21st March 2018, 23:45   #49703  |  Link
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there are no general answer so we simply don't say anything anymore or we say there are defaults keep them?


and manni if you really want to get an headache think what this does to the dithering and how do you turn this back to a lower bit deep.
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Old 22nd March 2018, 00:07   #49704  |  Link
ryrynz
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Originally Posted by e-t172 View Post
That's not a good answer though.
My point is... that it's already been answered many times.

Quote:
Originally Posted by e-t172 View Post
Honestly I think the "why don't you try it" answer is a bit rude IMHO. It provides no information, and presumably if the user had the time and motivation to do the comparison themselves they would already have done so. If you don't know the answer, then don't post.
It's really not, it's the most useful information one could provide, and in this case it's very much the answer. Not having "time or motivation" are nothing but excuses.

Asmodian, perhaps you could add a bit more info on this in your guide?

Last edited by ryrynz; 22nd March 2018 at 00:18.
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Old 22nd March 2018, 00:14   #49705  |  Link
Asmodian
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Thank Nev, glad that I was right to err on the side of caution (when you don't know, don't assume is my motto). I've learnt my lesson
I don't know, stating your assumption can also be very helpful. I would never have guessed Nev's trick but it is probably what really happens. I would never have known if Nev didn't need to correct me.
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Old 22nd March 2018, 00:16   #49706  |  Link
huhn
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or they do 16 bit dither to output.
again we don't know and we can't change it.
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Old 22nd March 2018, 00:19   #49707  |  Link
nevcairiel
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I would never have guessed Nev's trick but it is probably what really happens.
Its definitely in use in some things, but I can't exactly dump the HDMI data into a file to look at it, so... (now that would be a handy thing to have!)
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Old 22nd March 2018, 00:42   #49708  |  Link
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there are more than enough lossless HDMI capture cards. they just have there price...
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Old 22nd March 2018, 00:46   #49709  |  Link
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Hmm.. I actually have one... Maybe I should do some testing.
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Old 22nd March 2018, 01:41   #49710  |  Link
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NV HDR (banding) vs OS HDR (no banding)

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(...) Fwiw, my 'go to' movie for checking this discussion is Allied 2016. Scene 2:15 through 3:00 shows a dessert slow pan with a cloudy sky. That sky shows banding using 12bit settings in NCP. Using the 8bit settings (that it's going to revert to after a reboot anyway), there is no banding. (...)
I was puzzled by this and had to try it myself. And brazen1 is right, to a certain extent.
I've come to a conclusion, but I don't know how to explain why it happens. I tested wit the movie Allied, too and these are my findings:

Whether I chose "Use default color settings" or "Use NVIDIA color settings with RGB 12 bpc" didn't matter for the results I got. Either settings ended up with the same result, but to be consistent I used these settings (https://imgur.com/bx6QlS8) during the following tests:

1st test: enable "passthrough HDR content to the display" and enable "send HDR metadata to the display". This resulted in an automatic switch to HDR mode when I played the video and the madVR OSD shows (NV HDR): https://imgur.com/OZnoM6A
I can see banding on the blue sky when on D3D11 fullscreen windowed (10 bit) and the banding disappears with I right click the video and it shows D3D11 fullscreen windowed (8 bit)

2nd test: enable "passthrough HDR content to the display" and disable "send HDR metadata to the display". This doesn't automatically change to HDR mode and I have to manually enable "HDR and advanced color" on the Windows 10 Display Settings and the madVR OSD shows (OS HDR): https://imgur.com/i1hLNmC
I can't see any banding on the blue sky when on D3D11 fullscreen windowed (10 bit) or (8 bit).


I believe that when playing a 2160p 10bit HDR 23.976fps video and having madVR set up to output 10 bit, that all is going the best way possible.
What I don't understand is why when sending the HDR metadata, that results on NV HDR, I get banding and when not sending the HDR metadata, and manually enabling the OS HDR, I get perfect image and no banding... Why is OS HDR behaving differently than NV HDR for the same settings?
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Old 22nd March 2018, 02:02   #49711  |  Link
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Is 3GB card enough for upscaling to 1440p? I am thinking of getting a 1060 instead of 1050TI but the 6GB version is too expensive right now. Not sure if 1050TI is enough for upscaling to 1440 though.

Last edited by seiyafan; 22nd March 2018 at 02:04.
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Old 22nd March 2018, 02:31   #49712  |  Link
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You'll be fine with 3GB, yeah 1060 all the way.. great card.
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Old 22nd March 2018, 10:35   #49713  |  Link
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As I've said in previous posts, there is a lot more noticeable banding when sending "12-bit" to current-gen TVs compared to 10bit. Regardless of madVR or standalone UHD-players. So padded zeros or not - the result is more banding.

For example check out threads regarding Panasonics UB700/900 players - people were getting banding until Pana released new firmware enabling 10bit.

I myself got a lot less banding outputting 10bit from AMD compared to nvidias 12bit (Samsung JS9505).
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Old 22nd March 2018, 11:38   #49714  |  Link
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So.. maybe if Nvidia had a 10bit mode we'd be peachy?
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Old 22nd March 2018, 11:42   #49715  |  Link
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Or those crappy TVs should stop accepting 12-bit if they can't properly deal with it, then.
The fault clearly lies with the device that advertises support for a mode that it can't process properly.
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Last edited by nevcairiel; 22nd March 2018 at 11:46.
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Old 22nd March 2018, 11:49   #49716  |  Link
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Or those crappy TVs should stop accepting 12-bit if they can't properly deal with it, then.
The fault clearly lies with the device that advertises support for a mode that it can't process properly.
This. So much this.

I long for a world where companies open a special section of their website, dedicated to enthusiasts, with all information relative to what's necessary to defeat the so-called "enhancements" that they introduce to satisfy undiscerning eyes.
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Old 22nd March 2018, 13:52   #49717  |  Link
Manni
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Or those crappy TVs should stop accepting 12-bit if they can't properly deal with it, then.
The fault clearly lies with the device that advertises support for a mode that it can't process properly.
Sure, but that doesn’t mean that projectors like my JVC which do support 12bits from input to panel shouldn’t benefit from it.

Zero banding in the Allied clip here, and same results with NV HDR and OS HDR.

What is sure is that people should test whether their display supports 12bits or not before enabling it. 8bits is a safer option unless 12bits support is confirmed.
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Old 22nd March 2018, 14:03   #49718  |  Link
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The fault clearly lies with the device that advertises support for a mode that it can't process properly.
While you're right on TVs, I still don't get why NVIDIA won't give the option of 10-bit HDMI output.
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Old 22nd March 2018, 15:14   #49719  |  Link
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Old 22nd March 2018, 15:29   #49720  |  Link
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The solution here is Nvidia offering 10bit and 12bit support in divers for TV's that support both bit depths.
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