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Old 23rd April 2017, 08:04   #25861  |  Link
MrVideo
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Originally Posted by Lathe View Post
I KNOW videophiles will pale in horror
You certainly got that right.
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Old 23rd April 2017, 14:27   #25862  |  Link
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22.1 to 22.5 would be within the range of correct sizing. As I've said before, that's purposeful because the outer edges of the disc are much more prone to failure/error. By keeping the disc in a smaller size range you are less likely to experience problems. It also keeps me from having to respond to people who think the failed burn is BD-RB's fault. But the 20.9 (as reported) would be outside what should be expected.
I tried "Girl on the Train" yesterday with a custom target size of 24500 MB (I was really trying to push it there) and it resulted in 23,2 GB and only 67 MB free space left on the disc. I never had any issues with burning discs even when almost the full capacity was used but I admit - only 67 MB left was quite close to the edge.

Then I gave "Deepwater Horizon" another try with those settings which resulted in 21,9 GB and something came to my mind: Could the Dolby Atmos-tracks on that disc be the reason for BD Rebuilder's miscalculation? Both audio-tracks in the main movie are in Dolby Atmos 7.1.4 with a Dolby True HD 7.1-core. Maybe BD Rebuilder only gets something wrong here. The other discs I checked and which all were around 21,9 GB with the BD25-preset didn't have Atmos-tracks, so maybe that's the cause.

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Just my opinion/advice, but a disc written to capacity will hold about 23.3GB and that last 1GB (about 4%) or so isn't going to get you a noticeable improvement in quality, especially considering the risk. Of course, as always, I've added the ability to change the target size for anyone who disagrees.
You're right - under usual circumstancers 1 GB more or less for the whole disc shouldn't make a big difference in picture quality but I think when the bitrate gets as low as in my "Deepwater Horizon"-backup (only 4 MBit/s are very low, especially for such a film) it could make a difference. While I'm typing this I'm trying another backup of the film, now with a custom size of 25500 MB. If it follows the previous results this should now end up with around 22,9 GB which would be absolutely fine. And the main movie now got 5.687 kbps - compared to the 4.058 from the first backup with the BD25-preset this should be an improvement. Let's see what happens - fingers crossed.

EDIT: Not exactly 22,9 GB but hey - 22,8 GB are also OK.

Last edited by Thaddäus; 23rd April 2017 at 16:50.
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Old 23rd April 2017, 21:03   #25863  |  Link
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You can use the filter editor (see SETUP) to add the tweak filter. Example: Tweak(bright=20). That filter also lets you adjust other parameters such as contrast, hue, and saturation.
Thanks Jdobbs for the info, and Lathe for the example. I will give this a try and see if the results are more to my liking for my particular case.
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Old 25th April 2017, 21:10   #25864  |  Link
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... setting 2 Pass when I'm trying to be 'Mr. Anal' (so to speak, no cracks please...) and, ....
Uhh-heh - heh - heh...he typed anal and crack..uhhh-huh-huh-hehe hehe...

I couldn't pass it over...
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Old 25th April 2017, 21:12   #25865  |  Link
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Sorry...I left IVTC turned on in the setup dialog. I thought it had no effect on pure progressive content at all. But now, I see.
I had to remember that a few times also to switch it off.
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Old 26th April 2017, 01:39   #25866  |  Link
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Sorry...I left IVTC turned on in the setup dialog. I thought it had no effect on pure progressive content at all. But now, I see.
Technically there are two progressive video formats that can have telecine video:
1) 1080p with repeat frame to get 23.976 to 29.97 fps.
2) 720p 59.94 with 2:3 pulldown.
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Old 26th April 2017, 08:13   #25867  |  Link
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Uhh-heh - heh - heh...he typed anal and crack..uhhh-huh-huh-hehe hehe...

I couldn't pass it over...
Just trying to provide the top quality humour that this group has come to expect.

JD has taught us well...
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Old 27th April 2017, 05:50   #25868  |  Link
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Technically there are two progressive video formats that can have telecine video:
1) 1080p with repeat frame to get 23.976 to 29.97 fps.
2) 720p 59.94 with 2:3 pulldown.
I've still not gotten 2) to render to 23.976 or 29.97 correctly. Always jerky or 59.94 results. I haven't check into it for a while (private matters)...hence the lack of my replies.
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Old 27th April 2017, 13:15   #25869  |  Link
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I've still not gotten 2) to render to 23.976 or 29.97 correctly. Always jerky or 59.94 results.
The IVTC setting should do the job correctly. The AVISynth filter that Jdobb uses works with 720p 59.94 fps telecine video. Converting 59.94 to 29.97 with telecine material is not going to look pretty.
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Old 27th April 2017, 18:27   #25870  |  Link
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Xbox One S

Not sure if it's possible. But would like to know. What's the best settings to save or rebuild a Blu-Ray movie to a format that can be saved on a external drive connected to an Xbox One S and keep the original file size and audio (ex. Dolby Atmos). Where Xbox would recognize it like it was a Disc. Where you don't have to search the Blu-Ray folder looking for the right movie file to play. But hopefully like a disc.
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Old 27th April 2017, 18:38   #25871  |  Link
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Hello,

In Full-backup mode there is no chance to blank some of the very annoying m2ts files (mostly warnings) because they are not included in streamlist (even with MIN_M2TS_SIZE=0 set).
If I change to menu&movie only mode they can be blanked in the streamlist but the menu will be not fully functional finally(e.g. after changing the language from English to an other in the menu and then playing the movie until the end, the viewer will not get back to the menu automatically (permanent black screen). If I do not change the language from English in the menu the menu seems to be fully functional). This is not happening in Full-backup mode but at the same time I cannot blank the unwanted, annoying m2ts files.

Please help. My menus are not functioning this way.

Last edited by mparade; 27th April 2017 at 19:03.
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Old 27th April 2017, 20:08   #25872  |  Link
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Originally Posted by MrVideo View Post
The IVTC setting should do the job correctly. The AVISynth filter that Jdobb uses works with 720p 59.94 fps telecine video. Converting 59.94 to 29.97 with telecine material is not going to look pretty.
So far, 59.94 to 23.976 is producing a very slight jerky output. I'm checking a few other files to see if the same.
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Old 28th April 2017, 03:01   #25873  |  Link
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Originally Posted by AmigaFuture View Post
So far, 59.94 to 23.976 is producing a very slight jerky output. I'm checking a few other files to see if the same.
Any chance you can post a snippet of the original, say 30 sec worth, and the same snippet after recoding. I can then look at them to see if I can see anything that sticks out. M2TS, TS, MKV or MP4 wrappers would be fine.
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Old 29th April 2017, 02:35   #25874  |  Link
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Originally Posted by AmigaFuture View Post
So far, 59.94 to 23.976 is producing a very slight jerky output. I'm checking a few other files to see if the same.
OK, got the videos and it took me all of <30 sec to determine why you are having issues.

It is not 2:3 pulldown telecine source. You have to leave it as 59.94. Why? Because the source contains true 59.94 fps source and 29.97 fps source repeat framed to 59.94 fps. There is zero 23.976 source telecined. Even if there was in other portions of the complete video, what I've seen is enough to stop you from trying to do IVTC.

Sorry, but that is why you are having issues.
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Old 29th April 2017, 18:45   #25875  |  Link
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OK, got the videos and it took me all of <30 sec to determine why you are having issues.

It is not 2:3 pulldown telecine source. You have to leave it as 59.94. Why? Because the source contains true 59.94 fps source and 29.97 fps source repeat framed to 59.94 fps. There is zero 23.976 source telecined. Even if there was in other portions of the complete video, what I've seen is enough to stop you from trying to do IVTC.

Sorry, but that is why you are having issues.
Nothing to be sorry about. Ahhh...I think this help me come closer to understanding why some 59.94 fps will go to 23.976 and why some I have to use HandBrake still to get 29.97. When I use HandBrake I leave the Detelecine option "Off" in the Filters Tab, and the other filters "off" as well, but in the Video Tab I change the "framerate" to 23.976 or 29.97, and with this video I used 29.97. Then switch "Peak Framerate" to "Constant Framerate" and I notice totally smooth video. But I haven't found any info through HandBreak to find any filter switches like you can for AVISynth. But since it doesn't use AVISynth.. I'm not able to repeat this with BD-RB. HandBreak is a transcoder ONLY. But the video result is smooth, and I'm...not...a fan of transcoding. Since too much is "yanked" from the video which is already lower quality from Cable TV.

With a previous version of BD-RB, (49.xx)...??... I'd have to go back to check, anyway, then BD-RB was able to get 59.94 to 23.976 with IVTC, but since then it hasn't. So, I think there was a bug that JD caught. Laughing, I remember thinking, "Ahhh, man!! Back to HandBreak" since it wouldn't do it anymore.

Anyway, now I know there are 2 possible differences in 59.94, not just a "bug" causing a challenge. This is what's really complex to me and I'm attempting to understand it. Hence the joking friendly comment to Lathe a while back.

This is why I wondered if there's "switch" that could be added to BD-RB (not really knowing how else to ask the question) to "force?" a 23.976 or 29.97 framerate which HandBreak "seems" to do so a rerender without transcoding becomes possible. Hmm.. Really appreciate the continuity help with this. I also understand why JD prefers sources like this to be kept in original form.
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Old 30th April 2017, 00:18   #25876  |  Link
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Hello,

In Full-backup mode there is no chance to blank some of the very annoying m2ts files (mostly warnings) because they are not included in streamlist (even with MIN_M2TS_SIZE=0 set).
That's also my experience, from some discs you can remove all boring warnings, from other ones (e.g. Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles 2) you can't. I use MultiAVCHD in that cases, but since it seems to be not longer developed, it fails on new movies more and more. It would be really great if BR would allow to blank all warnings, regardles where they are hidden.
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Old 30th April 2017, 11:34   #25877  |  Link
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Originally Posted by AmigaFuture View Post
Nothing to be sorry about. Ahhh...I think this help me come closer to understanding why some 59.94 fps will go to 23.976 and why some I have to use HandBrake still to get 29.97.
Why do you want to convert 59.94 source material to 29.97, when the source contains true 59.94 fps video? By doing so, you've reduced the time spatial info.
Quote:
This is why I wondered if there's "switch" that could be added to BD-RB (not really knowing how else to ask the question) to "force?" a 23.976 or 29.97 framerate which HandBreak "seems" to do so a rerender without transcoding becomes possible.
Transcoding is generally when you go from one video codec to another, i.e., MPEG-2 to H.264, or H.264 to H.265. This requires a re-encoding, which you are calling a rerender.

Keep in mind that changing frame rates also requires a re-encoding. There is no way around that. You can't just "drop" frames in a 59.94 fps video to get to 29.97 fps. That isn't the way digital video works.
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Old 30th April 2017, 18:40   #25878  |  Link
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I can see the difference between using CloneDVD 2 from Elaborate Bytes if allowing it to clone a DVD using DVD-5 transcoding for rerendering vs DVD-RB's BEST 2-pass rerendering using HC as the encoder after disabling CloneDVD 2's transcoding using DVD DL. As an example. That means to me, using CloneDVD 2 to clone to a DVD-5 uses it's transcoder to rerender. Using it to process in conjunction with AnyDVD to rip a DVD but using DVD DL disables the transcoder and makes it all lossless to then use DVD-RB to rerender in 2-pass in BEST quality produces a much better looking DVD, I can see very well. I can also see the transcoded CloneDVD 2 version looking much worse, but to "normal eyes" of friends, it looks ok or GOOD.

When using BD-RB and disabling CRF/ABR I can see a difference in quality in whatever video I'm having it rerender. To me, and I'm realizing now that I might have been misunderstanding something in the reencoding process for some years now, that means transcodiing is disabled and quality encoding is happening.

I understand it doesn't "drop" the frames, I'm lacking in technical words to explain and attempting to get it across. :-) I understand when I used 29.97 and changed to Constant Framerate that means clicking "Start" means it starts a rerendering process otherwise it would all be lossless, or untouched.

In my mind, and I'm realizing I might have accepted something incorrectly for some years, that if the video is rerendered to it's actual source framerate that it's in better quality, AND...you can change the size of the file to fit projects. I'm still considering I might have taken on some misunderstandings. Ahhh, evolution.
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Old 1st May 2017, 02:41   #25879  |  Link
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There is no such thing as lossless recoding. Any time a video is recoded, there are digital losses. Depending on the bitrate involved, the loss can be so subtle that the viewer cannot see it. But, each and every re-encoding results in added digital artifacts. Initially, the broadcast industry was kinda worried about the re-encoding that goes on from the production stage up thru the broadcast stage. But, that point is kinds moot now that the video that is broadcast (OTA/cable/DBS) is so bit starved that it can look horrible.

You also cannot have something re-encoded and have it "look better" than the original. It is impossible to create something from nothing. It it like those TV shows where a still image, or surveillance video, is "enhanced" to get a sharp clear image. A crappy pixel image is going to stay a crappy pixel image.

When you re-encode from 59.94 fps to 29.97 fps, one of two things has to happen: 1) every other frame is dropped, or 2) two consecutive frames are blended together to create a single frame. You didn't say why you want to go to 29.07 fps, instead of keeping the original 59.94 fps video.

The general rule of thumb is that when you re-encode, in order to reduce the added artifacts, is to have at least a 2:1 bitrate difference. That means if the resulting bitrate is 10 Mbps, the source bitrate needs to be 20 Mbps, or more. Keep in mind that 20 Mbps MPEG-2 video is approximately equal to H.264 video at 40 Mbps. So, recoding 10 Mbps MPEG-2 video to 10 Mbps MPEG-2 video does nothing but add digital artifacts. It will not result in a better looking video. Recoding from 10 Mbps MPEG-2 video to 10 Mbps H.264 video will result in fewer digital artifacts due to the 2:1 ratio and the better H.264 encoder. But, in all cases, the resultant recoded video will not look better than the original.
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Old 1st May 2017, 11:06   #25880  |  Link
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Why do you want to convert 59.94 source material to 29.97, when the source contains true 59.94 fps video? By doing so, you've reduced the time spatial info.

Transcoding is generally when you go from one video codec to another, i.e., MPEG-2 to H.264, or H.264 to H.265. This requires a re-encoding, which you are calling a rerender.

Keep in mind that changing frame rates also requires a re-encoding. There is no way around that. You can't just "drop" frames in a 59.94 fps video to get to 29.97 fps. That isn't the way digital video works.
I THINK, if I understand this correctly, that in the past I've just left the video at 59.94 (I can't remember exactly what I did to 'double' the rate - IDK if it had something to do with it being interlaced or something...) Anyway, the 'doubled' rate at 59.94 looked a LOT better than when I tried to convert it to, what, 23.xx, I don't remember. But, since my player simply played the 59.94 perfectly fine 'as is', I just left it.

Now, you were saying that you cannot change the frame rate without re-encoding. How then does TSMuxer allow you to change the frame rate for the video track when it is simply remuxing the file...? Many times I get 'a hold of' an MKV file where when I drop it into TSMuxer it shows an improper frame rate of 90,000 fps (or something like that) I just choose the correct fps from the drop down menu. I can choose 24,000/0001, 24, 25, 30, 30,000/0001 if I remember correctly, and when I remux it, the actual frame rate DOES change to whatever I've chosen. So, if it is the wrong one, the A/V sync will be off.

How can it do this without re-encoding?
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