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Old 3rd June 2020, 23:11   #1  |  Link
Nico8583
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Convert Dolby Vision to HDR10+ ?

Hi,
I have a question, no doubt stupid, but I would like to understand.
Is it possible to convert Dolby Vision to HDR10+ ? Extract DV metadata and convert (and adapt) them to HDR10+ ?
I'm sorry if it's stupid but I don't know how DV works and the technology used.
Thank you.
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Old 4th June 2020, 00:15   #2  |  Link
Asmodian
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Theoretically possible but not actually possible. We need info about how to use DV metadata that we do not have. I am not sure how public the process to create HDR10+ metadata is either. I doubt we will ever see anything besides converting both of those formats to HDR10, not to each other.

Also there are lots of possibilities under "Dolby Vision" most of which are very strange and would be impossible to covert to HDR10+ without some loss, everything except profile ID 5. There is probably something else about profile 5 that does not directly translate to HDR10+ too.

Definitions of Dolby Vision bitstream profiles on page 8:
https://www.dolby.com/us/en/technolo...les-levels.pdf
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Old 4th June 2020, 02:37   #3  |  Link
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Well, DoVi has a tone mapper, and it could tone map to a nominal HDR10 base layer, from which dynamic metadata could be auto generated. I don't think there's any way to directly remap the metadata, though.
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Old 4th June 2020, 08:24   #4  |  Link
Nico8583
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Thanks both

Quote:
Originally Posted by Asmodian View Post
Theoretically possible but not actually possible. We need info about how to use DV metadata that we do not have. I am not sure how public the process to create HDR10+ metadata is either. I doubt we will ever see anything besides converting both of those formats to HDR10, not to each other.

Also there are lots of possibilities under "Dolby Vision" most of which are very strange and would be impossible to covert to HDR10+ without some loss, everything except profile ID 5. There is probably something else about profile 5 that does not directly translate to HDR10+ too.

Definitions of Dolby Vision bitstream profiles on page 8:
https://www.dolby.com/us/en/technolo...les-levels.pdf
Yes DoVi is very strange, if I read it correctly it can uses metadata (profile ID5 or ID8) or it can uses a FHD video stream (profile ID4 or ID7) as enhancement layer ?

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Originally Posted by benwaggoner View Post
Well, DoVi has a tone mapper, and it could tone map to a nominal HDR10 base layer, from which dynamic metadata could be auto generated. I don't think there's any way to directly remap the metadata, though.
Ok so if I want to encode a DoVi movie to play it on a Samsung TV (only HDR10+, not DoVi) I can't do it. The only way is to encode the movie to HDR10 and to lose dynamic metadata ?
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Old 4th June 2020, 20:28   #5  |  Link
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Most DoVi content is Profile 5, which is non backwards compatible with HDR10. Decoding that into something usable requires Dolby IP, so that's not happening. If you try to play it without the special Dolby magic the colors will look completely wrong and you'll have huge luminance shifts.

If you come across Profile 8.1 content, that's an HDR10 base, which you could just play directly, or analyze and generate HDR10+ metadata from. Then you could theoretically mux that in without re-encoding. Some streaming services intend to deliver all 3 formats this way.

I don't think anyone is using it yet though.
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Old 4th June 2020, 20:32   #6  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue_MiSfit View Post
Most DoVi content is Profile 5, which is non backwards compatible with HDR10. Decoding that into something usable requires Dolby IP, so that's not happening. If you try to play it without the special Dolby magic the colors will look completely wrong and you'll have huge luminance shifts.

If you come across Profile 8.1 content, that's an HDR10 base, which you could just play directly, or analyze and generate HDR10+ metadata from. Then you could theoretically mux that in without re-encoding. Some streaming services intend to deliver all 3 formats this way.

I don't think anyone is using it yet though.
Yeah, Profile 8.x wasn't included in the original DoVi client engine, and was originally concieved of as just a solution for live DoVi streaming. There will be lots of older DoVi devices that don't support 8.1 for some years, alas.
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Old 4th June 2020, 20:55   #7  |  Link
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Thanks again.
So if I remux a DoVi video track (profile 5 if it is the most available) to MKV then I play it to a Samsung TV (without DoVi support, only HDR10+), how does it play ? As HDR ? Not HDR10 ?
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Old 4th June 2020, 23:15   #8  |  Link
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It will not play even remotely correctly.

Colors will be totally wrong, and there will be sudden, severe luminance shifts. You'll be looking at the post-processed IPT representation of the signal misinterpreted as YCbCr.

You can do absolutely nothing with a Profile 5 encode without a Dolby Vision implementation.
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Old 5th June 2020, 05:37   #9  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue_MiSfit View Post
Most DoVi content is Profile 5, which is non backwards compatible with HDR10.
How does that work with a non-DoVi compatible player? I thought that most UHDs with DoVi content are Profile 7.
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Old 5th June 2020, 20:22   #10  |  Link
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Yes, I was referring to streaming video

In the UHD BluRay disc world all DoVi content is profile 7, which is indeed a base HDR layer compatible with the UHD BD standard (which may or may not be somewhat different from how you'd encode HDR10 for streaming, not sure), plus a second HEVC stream as an enhancement layer (as opposed to just metadata like Profile 8).

https://www.dolby.com/us/en/technolo...les-levels.pdf
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Old 5th June 2020, 21:08   #11  |  Link
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Ah! Thanks. Yes I'm speaking about UHD BluRay disc, not streaming, I was afraid to not play movie at all
So I could play UHD BR as HDR(10 ?) only if my TV doesn't support DoVi, right ?
I'm curious to know how DoVi proceed to use a HEVC (FHD ?) stream as enhanced layer...
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Old 5th June 2020, 21:38   #12  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue_MiSfit View Post
Yes, I was referring to streaming video

In the UHD BluRay disc world all DoVi content is profile 7, which is indeed a base HDR layer compatible with the UHD BD standard (which may or may not be somewhat different from how you'd encode HDR10 for streaming, not sure), plus a second HEVC stream as an enhancement layer (as opposed to just metadata like Profile 8).

https://www.dolby.com/us/en/technolo...les-levels.pdf
I thought that there were discs with Profile 5 now as well.
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Old 5th June 2020, 23:38   #13  |  Link
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Really? I had no idea. That would surprise me because it would only play on a BD player with DoVi support.

I suppose the player could convert back to YCbCr and tone map for an HDR10 or SDR TV but you still need a UHD BD player with DoVi support and that's not all of them. Xbox One S/X being by far the most prevelant!
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Old 6th June 2020, 09:19   #14  |  Link
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So I see x265 supports Dolby Vision encoding but is it possible to encode with x265 to DoVi from a UHD BR ? It needs a RPU file, is this file created by extracting metadata from EL ? Or we can't create this file ourselves ?
Perhaps it could be possible to convert RPU DoVi file to HDR10+ metadata file ?! I don't know the structure of each file but I can look at it if I have some examples.
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Old 6th June 2020, 09:28   #15  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nico8583 View Post
So I see x265 supports Dolby Vision encoding but is it possible to encode with x265 to DoVi from a UHD BR ? It needs a RPU file, is this file created by extracting metadata from EL ? Or we can't create this file ourselves ?
Perhaps it could be possible to convert RPU DoVi file to HDR10+ metadata file ?! I don't know the structure of each file but I can look at it if I have some examples.
That's what I asked earlier in the x265 thread. As UHD Blu-ray discs generally have the base layer and the enhancement layer, it should be possible to re-encode the base layer to a lower bitrate and mux the two layers to mp4 with ffmpeg. In the (near?) future, maybe it's possible to create Matroska files as well as MakeMKV already does that itself.
I haven't tested that myself yet, but will do at some point. My TV supports DoVi, but the media player doesn't so I cannot use those encodes directly in my library.
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Old 7th June 2020, 09:19   #16  |  Link
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Is DoVi a part of MKV specifications ? MakeMKV created a non-standard MKV (with AVC+MVC streams for 3D movies) so it was impossible to play it on some players. I don't know it it's the same for DoVi.
But my goal is not to play DoVi because my TV is not compatible (Samsung supports only HDR10+), it's to convert DoVi metadata to HDR10+ metadata but it seems to be not possible now.
It would be great to be able to extract metadata from EL and them convert to HDR10+ metadata file.
There is already a tool to extract HDR10+ metadata from a UHD BR stream so if we could do the same with DoVi, we could try to find a way to reuse DoVi metadata to create HDR10+ metadata file. Perhaps it's utopian...
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Old 8th June 2020, 18:15   #17  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue_MiSfit View Post
Really? I had no idea. That would surprise me because it would only play on a BD player with DoVi support.

I suppose the player could convert back to YCbCr and tone map for an HDR10 or SDR TV but you still need a UHD BD player with DoVi support and that's not all of them. Xbox One S/X being by far the most prevelant!
Those discs would have independent HDR10 and DoVi Profile 5 streams. Profile 5 uses a lower bitrate than 7, so the cumulative bitrate is still feasible for discs that aren't super-long or have lots of extras.

Among other things, devices that are capped at 24 fps for Profile 7 can normally do at least 30 fps with Profile 5 due to better Profile 5 performance.
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Old 8th June 2020, 21:44   #18  |  Link
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Interesting! TIL!
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Old 9th June 2020, 20:23   #19  |  Link
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This is kinda neat, tho only for DV delivered over HDMI to HDR10:

https://www.hdfury.com/enjoy-dynamic...hdr10-display/
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