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Old 2nd June 2020, 16:33   #59661  |  Link
nevcairiel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alexantr View Post
Who know anything about future of madvr? Will tonemapping be fixed in future? I can't uncheck "compromise on tone & gamut mapping accuracy" to activate two disabled options in "hdr" section. With unchecked "compromise on tone & gamut mapping accuracy" picture is reddish and unrealistic (I can not imagine who like it).
Tone Mapping has already been substantially reworked in the madVR beta versions with much better results, just need to be patient until its released - or use the betas like many here do if you watch a lot of HDR. But beware, it has many more options to find the proper balance, so its not necessarily fire-and-forget quite yet (hence still beta).
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Old 2nd June 2020, 19:29   #59662  |  Link
alexantr
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Originally Posted by Alexkral View Post
Well, this is my result for the second:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/19Ob...ew?usp=sharing
It looks like my monitor in HDR mode shows.
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Old 2nd June 2020, 22:17   #59663  |  Link
HillieSan
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Hi, where can I download the beta version?
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Old 3rd June 2020, 06:23   #59664  |  Link
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it's in this thread sorry i don't know the page.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-di...projector.html
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Old 3rd June 2020, 11:16   #59665  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alexantr View Post
I can't uncheck "compromise on tone & gamut mapping accuracy" to activate two disabled options in "hdr" section. With unchecked "compromise on tone & gamut mapping accuracy" picture is reddish and unrealistic (I can not imagine who like it).
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Originally Posted by Alexkral View Post
Yeah, that's the problem of using ICtCp the way it's done, but checking "Compromise in ..." causes other problems that are more evident. Actually I do think this can be fixed, in fact I've been using my own solution for tone mapping for some time now...
Interesting, is it publicly available?

There was a discussion about this recently in the beta thread started by @Javs, for about from here (and it goes through 10 pages).
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Old 3rd June 2020, 17:27   #59666  |  Link
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Interesting, is it publicly available?
Currently not, it's a pixel shader with BT.2390 tone mapping (original roll-off), saturation correction and gamut mapping. I'd like to share it at some point but I don't think it's completely finished, it needs some more work and testing, and right now I'm trying to finish another project completely unrelated.

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There was a discussion about this recently in the beta thread started by @Javs, for about from here (and it goes through 10 pages).
I took a look at that until madhi's answer, I'll try to summarize what I think. They are two different concepts. With "Compromise ..." Off, tone mapping and saturation correction are done in ICtCp in two separate steps, resulting in oversaturation and (theoretically) correct hue. With "Compromise ..." On, tone mapping is applied separately to the RGB channels, which directly desaturates them, but although for normal scenes this desaturation is more or less normal, for bright scenes it is clearly too much, to the point that highlights can end up completely white. And it also produces hue shifts, which, as incorrect as they may be, we are used to seeing because they are already present in the SDR.

So in terms of the saturation correction, it would be about finding a middle point, but there is no middle concept, so you have to start from one of the two. Since madhi is not willing to tolerate any hue shift and madVR is completely based on the first concept, I imagine he will try to modify the saturation correction step, and I wish him luck because I consider it extremely complicated. I think that the fact that desaturation is sometimes clearly exaggerated with the second concept, should not make us forget the fact that RGB channels are desaturated in a more natural way in the same tone mapping step, so it's just a matter of avoiding that excess. This can be done even while avoiding any hue shift with some conversions, but honestly, I am used to seeing the fire between yellow and red, also in real life, so maybe the shift is only wrong because we don't know enough about the changes in hue perception related to changes in intensity (see Bezold-Brucke effect), and perhaps the "very bad and un-scientific math" has surprisingly a correct side effect. So of course I understand madhi's point, but instead of adding options to artificially modify it, I think it would be better to allow it naturally up to a limit. But maybe we should ask a firefighter.
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Old 3rd June 2020, 18:43   #59667  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Asmodian View Post
SDR does not have metadata, so there is nothing for madVR to send. You can keep your display in DCI-P3 and set madVR so it coverts BT.709.
IMHO that's a display bug/inconsistency. Even if there's no metadata, when receiving UHD the display should switch to BT.2020 colour space as it does with 601/709 when receiving SD/HD. @wasper Are you sure the display colour gamut mode is on 'auto'?
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Old 3rd June 2020, 21:45   #59668  |  Link
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there is even in practice meta data for the color space and you can even set it with nvidia cards to bt 2020.
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Old 4th June 2020, 05:48   #59669  |  Link
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Originally Posted by el Filou View Post
IMHO that's a display bug/inconsistency. Even if there's no metadata, when receiving UHD the display should switch to BT.2020 colour space as it does with 601/709 when receiving SD/HD. @wasper Are you sure the display colour gamut mode is on 'auto'?

Headscratch.. why would it do this automatically for 4k. What if someone wants 4K SDR gamut emulation like on PC.
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Old 4th June 2020, 15:38   #59670  |  Link
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Headscratch.. why would it do this automatically for 4k. What if someone wants 4K SDR gamut emulation like on PC.
Some of us have 4K monitors on our PCs.
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Old 4th June 2020, 15:44   #59671  |  Link
huhn
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what has this to do with a monitor or TV?
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Old 4th June 2020, 23:16   #59672  |  Link
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Hello guys...two questions..

1. If I am using the madvr Tone Mapping, does it mean when doing a 3Dlut with DisplayCal I must select 2.2 Gamma or can I use 2.4? I ask because of a comment I read recently someone saying he was forced to use 2.2 gamma because he uses the tone mapping feature of madvr.
2. Any suggestions on settings when upconverting 1080p blurays to 4K? I am on beta 112.

Like maybe this
Quote:
Medium:

Chroma: NGU Anti-Alias (low)

Downscaling: SSIM 1D 100% + LL + AR
Image upscaling: Off
Image doubling: NGU Sharp
<-- Luma doubling: high
<-- Luma quadrupling: let madVR decide (direct quadruple - NGU Sharp (high))
<-- Chroma: let madVR decide (Bicubic60 + AR)
<-- Doubling: let madVR decide (scaling factor 1.2x (or bigger))
<-- Quadrupling: let madVR decide (scaling factor 2.4x (or bigger))
<-- Upscaling algo: let madVR decide (Bicubic60 + AR)
<-- Downscaling algo: let madVR decide (Bicubic150 + LL + AR)
Upscaling refinement: Off
Artifact removal - Debanding: low/medium
Artifact removal - Deringing: Off
Artifact removal - Deblocking: Off
Artifact removal - Denoising: Off
Image enhancements: Off
Dithering: Error Diffusion 2

High:

Chroma: NGU Anti-Alias (medium)

Downscaling: SSIM 1D 100% + LL + AR
Image upscaling: Off
Image doubling: NGU Sharp
<-- Luma doubling: very high
<-- Luma quadrupling: let madVR decide (direct quadruple - NGU Sharp (very high))
<-- Chroma: let madVR decide (NGU medium)
<-- Doubling: let madVR decide (scaling factor 1.2x (or bigger))
<-- Quadrupling: let madVR decide (scaling factor 2.4x (or bigger))
<-- Upscaling algo: let madVR decide (Jinc + AR)
<-- Downscaling algo: let madVR decide (SSIM 1D 100% + LL + AR)
Upscaling refinement: Off
Artifact removal - Debanding: low/medium
Artifact removal - Deringing: Off
Artifact removal - Deblocking: Off
Artifact removal - Denoising: Off
Image enhancements: Off
Dithering: Error Diffusion 2
Thank you!!

Last edited by shaolin95; 4th June 2020 at 23:23.
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Old 5th June 2020, 00:09   #59673  |  Link
Manni
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Re 3D LUT yes the target has to be 2.2 when using tonemapping. It doesn’t make any difference as PQ is absolute, so it will look the same as if 2.4 was possible. It can be whatever you want for sdr rec-709.
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Old 5th June 2020, 00:38   #59674  |  Link
shaolin95
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Re 3D LUT yes the target has to be 2.2 when using tonemapping. It doesn’t make any difference as PQ is absolute, so it will look the same as if 2.4 was possible. It can be whatever you want for sdr rec-709.
I just tried a 2.4 3Dlut with my projector as 2.4 and things were a bit too oddly dark so I guess 2.2 it is.

Ok but since you mentioned SDR, from my understanding, since i have my projector to 2020 and madvr with the 3Dlut on the 2020 slot of the calibration page, then madvr will be taking care of mapping any SDR non 2020 content to 2020 space so I only need that one 3Dlut. Right?
Thanks again
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Old 5th June 2020, 04:56   #59675  |  Link
huhn
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yes this one is enough.

but you could just add a bt 709 gamma 2.4 3D LUT for SDR as an example and you don't need new readings for this.
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Old 5th June 2020, 10:39   #59676  |  Link
HillieSan
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it's in this thread sorry i don't know the page.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-di...projector.html
Thanks. I have found it. Phew, lots of stuff to read.
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Old 5th June 2020, 10:48   #59677  |  Link
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Originally Posted by shaolin95 View Post
Hello guys...two questions..

1. If I am using the madvr Tone Mapping, does it mean when doing a 3Dlut with DisplayCal I must select 2.2 Gamma or can I use 2.4? I ask because of a comment I read recently someone saying he was forced to use 2.2 gamma because he uses the tone mapping feature of madvr.
2. Any suggestions on settings when upconverting 1080p blurays to 4K? I am on beta 112.
You craete a 2.4 lut for SDR
For the HDR, you create a 2.2 SDR Lut

In both cases, you want to use the Native gamut mode of your TV, whichever mode gives you the widest gamut.
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Old 5th June 2020, 13:15   #59678  |  Link
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HDR Question. Just upgraded to a LG C9 Oled. In madvr under hdr should I just use passthough (with hdr metadata) and have dynamic tone mapping enabled on the tv? Or should I set the target peak nits to 700 in madvr and disable dynamic tone mapping on the tv?
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Old 5th June 2020, 17:55   #59679  |  Link
Manni
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Originally Posted by shaolin95 View Post
I just tried a 2.4 3Dlut with my projector as 2.4 and things were a bit too oddly dark so I guess 2.2 it is.

Ok but since you mentioned SDR, from my understanding, since i have my projector to 2020 and madvr with the 3Dlut on the 2020 slot of the calibration page, then madvr will be taking care of mapping any SDR non 2020 content to 2020 space so I only need that one 3Dlut. Right?
Thanks again
Yes sure if it's a panel and if you don't need a separate LUT for SDR to get better contrast/black levels/lower peak white in a dedicated room, a single BT2020 LUT should do and madVR can convert as needed.

2.2 is the only possible choice for the target if you want to use the LUT for madVR tonemapping, but you can set the display to whatever you want, as it will be corrected by the LUT. It just makes sense to make the baseline calibration as close to the target as possible if you don't need to use the same calibration fro non-madVR sources.
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Old 5th June 2020, 18:17   #59680  |  Link
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HDR Question. Just upgraded to a LG C9 Oled. In madvr under hdr should I just use passthough (with hdr metadata) and have dynamic tone mapping enabled on the tv? Or should I set the target peak nits to 700 in madvr and disable dynamic tone mapping on the tv?
I use passthrough on my C9 but others prefer madVR's tone mapping.
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