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11th May 2015, 07:07 | #29602 | Link | |
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If dithering is recommended to always have, which setting produces the highest quality without grain? Last edited by SecurityBunny; 11th May 2015 at 07:39. |
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11th May 2015, 07:17 | #29603 | Link | |
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By overkill I meant to visual gradient but NOT for mathematics correctness; Meaning it should never be turned off. Dithering is important, nothing falls exactly in place mathematically even in 10bit which is only 1024 places. I use Ordered Dithering which takes nothing from the performance nor from the quality of dithering (imo).
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System: i7 3770K, GTX660, Win7 64bit, Panasonic ST60, Dell U2410. Last edited by James Freeman; 11th May 2015 at 07:38. |
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11th May 2015, 07:48 | #29604 | Link | ||
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So if 10 bit "looks" like 8 bit + dithering then the point I'm trying to make here is that you can stand to attain the same PQ (perhaps higher) and also gain performance if you decide to disable dithering. Alternatively of course one could keep dithering enabled, I was simply pointing out there was an upside to something you claimed was overkill (pointless?) not that enabling 10 bit was sufficient enough to warrant disabling dithering for every situation, I'm quite well aware of it's "importance" BTW not everyone has negligible impact from dithering, If I disable it I have 8% reduction in GPU load on the HD4000 and it then clocks down to 350Mhz half the time thus saving power. Quote:
Last edited by ryrynz; 11th May 2015 at 08:27. |
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11th May 2015, 08:07 | #29605 | Link | |
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With HDR/Plasma (high contrast ratio display) gradients may be visible in 10bit also, so dithering is important. Ordered Dithering is as good as Direct Compute (IMO) and has no performance hit for me. I will test my plasma (Panasonic ST60) if it can accept 10bit signal, and whether the picture is "calmer" without dithering if it can. Plasma display technology by itself is based on dithering, this is how the image is generated, which can be very distracting. Maybe it can be even calmer without madVR sending another dithering...?
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System: i7 3770K, GTX660, Win7 64bit, Panasonic ST60, Dell U2410. Last edited by James Freeman; 11th May 2015 at 08:20. |
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11th May 2015, 08:14 | #29606 | Link | |
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I'm quite interested in seeing actual results of 8 bit + dithering vs 10 bit, is madTestPatternSource working for you?
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Certainly with 8 bit output based on madshi's posts I wouldn't disable it but once I enabled 10 bit that dithering went straight off. Stable pixels makes for a better picture. Last edited by ryrynz; 11th May 2015 at 08:29. |
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11th May 2015, 08:43 | #29608 | Link | |
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Tested with my Dell U2410 which supports 10bit (8bit+FRC). I saw no difference between: * 8bit+dithering(madVR)->U2410 8bit. * 10bit+no dithering (madVR)->U2410 10bit (8bit+FRC). Printscreen.
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System: i7 3770K, GTX660, Win7 64bit, Panasonic ST60, Dell U2410. Last edited by James Freeman; 11th May 2015 at 08:47. |
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11th May 2015, 08:43 | #29609 | Link |
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There is a function in windows, called "print screen", there is even a key like that on your keyboard....
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LAV Filters - open source ffmpeg based media splitter and decoders |
11th May 2015, 08:44 | #29610 | Link |
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Is DX11 (current implementation?) compatible with DXVA2 native?
First time I tried it with 10 bits (0.88.0) and got fullscreen static pattern. Seems like a video driver crash. Had to reboot the whole system. 10 bits worked fine with software decoding before that. Next time I tried it with 8 bits (0.88.2) and got high CPU load on MPC-HC process (very old build though). Both LAV and madVR showed DXVA. Reverted madVR back to some old build and everything went normal. Win7 x86, 7750, 13.12. |
11th May 2015, 08:49 | #29611 | Link |
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Just make sure you aren't in FSE mode (when using printscreen) also 10 bit output can't be captured accurately so don't bother trying to make screenshot comparisons with it enabled.
Alt+I is another alternative in MPC that'll capture FSE mode just fine. Last edited by ryrynz; 11th May 2015 at 08:53. |
11th May 2015, 08:49 | #29612 | Link | |
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First things first, thanks a lot for keeping madVR up-to-date madshi! Will provide useful feedback when I have more time, currently an awful lot of work...
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Just because something is "calmer" and more stable doesn't automatically mean it's more accurate. That's why we (foremost madshi, but also everyone that helped tweaking the dithering algorithms in this very thread) wanted an extremely accurate but as noise-free as possible solution and I think we succeeded in that. We tested with up to 16bit inputs and only with madVRs final dithering we could get away with extremely high accurateness. madVR's dithering is so accurate that you can lower bitdepth to sub 6bit and barely notice anything if you don't watch very closely. This of course also depends on the dithering type you select, that's why madVR offers some very high-quality choices tweaked to preferences of CRTs, plasmas, LCDs and last but not least projectors. Secondly, and rather more common, there are still a lot of sub 8bit displays out there and lots of displays that claim to support >8bit, but don't, let alone people that don't even understand "what to look for". Sadly, my Eizo CG243W only supports 10bit input via DisplayPort and I am not even sure if DVI in general even supports it. From the top of my head I only recall Displayport and HDMI. So there's that. Also, as long as we cannot output in 16bit (which is the final image madVR has available before it gets sent to the display), theoretically dithering will always be required. Also, in cases when the display does something it shouldn't do (e.x. disabling the dithering when there's higher precision inputs than a certain threshold, e.x. due to a firmware bug or just because no one expected it), dithering is a good way of being safe in that regard. Last edited by iSunrise; 11th May 2015 at 08:57. |
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11th May 2015, 08:57 | #29613 | Link | |
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Granted I was only using my eyes for testing but I was very close to the TV and honestly whatever mathematical accurateness near invisible to the eye was gained by having dithering
enabled did not amount to enough of a improvement vs the drawbacks of additional noise in the picture. I'll give it another look though with madVR when I can. Quote:
Are we at a point where we don't really need it enabled? Last edited by ryrynz; 11th May 2015 at 09:03. |
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11th May 2015, 09:13 | #29615 | Link |
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Again, at low contrast ratio display.
In this case yes, 8bit+dithering which visually can be equivalent to 10bit+ where our human eye is at its limit discerning such small light difference. * Taken that the visual system is linear (which is most definitely not), just for practical example: A monitor with peak white at 120[cd/m2] divided by 256 (8bit) will have 0.47[cd/m2] light difference between steps. A monitor with peak white at 1000[cd/m2] (HDR) divided by 256 (8bit) will have 3.9[cd/m2] light difference between steps. A monitor with peak white at 120[cd/m2] divided by 1024 (10bit) will have 0.11[cd/m2] light difference between steps. A monitor with peak white at 1000[cd/m2] divided by 1024 (10bit) will have 0.98[cd/m2] light difference between steps.
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System: i7 3770K, GTX660, Win7 64bit, Panasonic ST60, Dell U2410. Last edited by James Freeman; 11th May 2015 at 09:28. |
11th May 2015, 09:51 | #29616 | Link |
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madTestPatternSource is only working on x86 ATM, but I ran it on the plasma and the U2412. Basically 10 bit without dithering looks near identical to 8 bit without dithering.. so there's a big difference in the graduation of the bars
when switching from 10 bit to 10 bit + dithering.. so I guess that ends that.. I was expecting 10 bit to show some sort of difference. Madshi, sometimes when switching dithering options or even the bit depth output on the HD4000 sometimes resulted in a black or partial black screen which when playback continued disappeared. |
11th May 2015, 10:23 | #29617 | Link | |
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ryrynz I can't understand your post.
Can you please read it and fix it? Quote:
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System: i7 3770K, GTX660, Win7 64bit, Panasonic ST60, Dell U2410. Last edited by James Freeman; 11th May 2015 at 10:51. |
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11th May 2015, 10:50 | #29618 | Link | |
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I don't know how anyone can say 8 bit + dithering is anywhere near 10 bit.. as I'm not seeing that at all. 7 bit has a huge effect on the ramps, 8, 9 & 10 bit look almost exactly the same (I certainly couldn't tell the difference without looking up close) Can someone else jump into an x86 version of MPC / BE and look at the smallramp & tell me if they see any difference between 8 and 10 bit output? madshi, I'm getting strange results switching bit depths.. I switched to 8 bit from 7 bit (which didn't change bitdepth btw) and when I clicked okay on 8 bit it switched to 7 bit.. I had banding on smallramp so it definitely wasn't 8 bit. I duplicated it, switched to 7 bit no change in output, went and changed to 8 bit and boom.. banding all over the place. I also changed to 6 bit (updated as expected) went to 8 bit (did nothing) then went back to 6 bit and it changed to 8 bit. Testing on the HD 4000, 10.18.10.4176, Windows 7. Now it's behaving properly.. (restarted the player) no idea what caused it, can't duplicate it again. Last edited by ryrynz; 11th May 2015 at 11:22. |
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11th May 2015, 10:55 | #29619 | Link |
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First sentence: looks near identical -> big difference in the graduation ???
Or: there's a big difference in the graduation -> 10 bit to 10 bit + dithering ??? ??? My experience is 180 deg different. I can clearly see the difference between UNDITHERED 8bit vs 10bit. But Dithered 8bit vs 10bit has no difference. It has to be compared on a ditherless display technology, aka don't compare on a plasma. Use an LCD preferable with native 10bit panel or 8+FRC which is next best thing.
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System: i7 3770K, GTX660, Win7 64bit, Panasonic ST60, Dell U2410. Last edited by James Freeman; 11th May 2015 at 11:06. |
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direct compute, dithering, error diffusion, madvr, ngu, nnedi3, quality, renderer, scaling, uhd upscaling, upsampling |
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