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Old 23rd July 2020, 20:46   #301  |  Link
NikosD
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Originally Posted by FranceBB View Post
Please, tell me this is a joke...

Not Jason... Not him...

It would be the fall of a hero for me...
Why all this drama ?
Not everybody in this world is sure about his/her sex and sexuality.
The Wachowskis are the most famous people who have done the same thing.
It could be a characteristic of a genius.
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Old 23rd July 2020, 21:33   #302  |  Link
stax76
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Please, tell me this is a joke...
Not Jason... Not him...
It would be the fall of a hero for me...
Weird comment, I think rule 15 applies here.
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Old 23rd July 2020, 21:46   #303  |  Link
FranceBB
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It could be a characteristic of a genius.
Dark Shikari was a genius indeed, whether that particular thing is the characteristic of geniuses, I don't know...
Perhaps... I just hope he/she is happy with his/her choice...

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I think rule 15 applies here.
Yeah, sorry for derailing the topic, I didn't mean to.
Now, back on topic and back to VVC:

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Originally Posted by ksec View Post
Based on the three slides I posted What I am seeing is AV1 using higher bitrate to achieve slightly better results. In terms of similar bitrate overall VVC is still ~10 to 20% better.
It is, the higher score is limited to the high bitrates, however they're not so unthinkable if you consider real world scenarios, which leads me to the question: why? Was it because of some fine details that were averaged/blurred out in VVC and were not in AV1? Was it because of grain retention? I mean, a screenshot of scores doesn't tell us much...
Anyway, the last time I encoded a test sample with the reference encoder was in December 2018, perhaps it's time for me to encode something again and compare it with other codecs this time. I'll try to put something together next week... maybe... unless I'm too overwhelmed with other things that my colleagues keep assigning me...

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Old 23rd July 2020, 22:16   #304  |  Link
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Thank you for quickly getting back on topic. My takeaway is that no ill will was intended, and that we all have the utmost respect for D_S and wish her the best

Let's all please be respectful to each other. Thank you.
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Old 24th July 2020, 02:23   #305  |  Link
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Thank you for quickly getting back on topic. My takeaway is that no ill will was intended, and that we all have the utmost respect for D_S and wish her the best

Let's all please be respectful to each other. Thank you.
Thanks for the correction, my apology if I have offended anyone. Utmost Respect to DS and from the bottom of my heart I wish her all the best.

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It is, the higher score is limited to the high bitrates,
Well I wouldn't call 1.5Mbps high bitrate. Let wait until VVC settle down and get a production encoder to play around before we make a judgement. Reference Encoder are really only good for compliance.

I am also noticing quite a bit of activity over at MC-IF. So lets hope we have more news soon.

Edit: Pool Administrator Selected by 2020 or Early 2021 before they talk about licensing terms. :/
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Old 1st August 2020, 22:01   #306  |  Link
Mosu
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I read that the VVC/h.266 standard was finalized in July. Great. But is it actually available for purchase yet? I wasn't able to find it, neither on the ISO website, nor on the IEC or ITU-T websites. But I find each of those somewhat confusing to navigate; it's perfectly possible that I simply missed them.

If the standard's not available for purchase yet, any idea when it will be (roughly)?
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Old 2nd August 2020, 14:47   #307  |  Link
foxyshadis
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I read that the VVC/h.266 standard was finalized in July. Great. But is it actually available for purchase yet? I wasn't able to find it, neither on the ISO website, nor on the IEC or ITU-T websites. But I find each of those somewhat confusing to navigate; it's perfectly possible that I simply missed them.

If the standard's not available for purchase yet, any idea when it will be (roughly)?
You can buy the draft at ISO/IEC DIS 23090-3. It's not yet granted full ISO approval status, so it's not shown in browsing. Note that buying the draft doesn't entitle you to the final standard, which is incredibly annoying.

Edit: For more fun, the JVET site has been taken down, too.

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Old 2nd August 2020, 15:05   #308  |  Link
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Thanks. I think I'll wait for the final, then.
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Old 7th August 2020, 09:17   #309  |  Link
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The latest draft (not final) can be found at http://phenix.it-sudparis.eu/jvet/
Choose the June 2020 meeting, document S2001.
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Old 11th August 2020, 22:50   #310  |  Link
amayra
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i refuse to touch anything not Royalty-free when it come to codec
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Old 13th August 2020, 16:29   #311  |  Link
birdie
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i refuse to touch anything not Royalty-free when it come to codec
It's not clear why you feel entitled to share your opinion in this topic. If you refuse to touch anything not totally opensource/free, then what are you doing in this topic?
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Old 13th August 2020, 20:18   #312  |  Link
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@ksec... very interesting results. H.266 did way better than x264 and x265 at both low and high bitrates. It was also better than VP9 as we expected, but it couldn't quite get a grip on AV1 at high bitrates. I wonder whether it's because AV1 encoders have been available for quite some time now and are more mature than the H.266 reference encoder or if it's due to the codec standard/implementation itself...
I guess some other tests will have to be done to evaluate this, but judging from the first data, we're definitely heading in the right direction. Let's wait an see.
It's really hard to say without seeing the specifics of the test parameters. As a reference encoder, the VVC VTM won't have much psychovisual tuning while libaom has gotten quite a lot. Also libaom has gotten a lot of VMAF tuning, so we should expect its VMAF scores to somewhat outperform its actual subjective quality. Also, VMAF isn't a sensitive instrument comparing at high quality and bitrates. Only MOS testing has been usefully informative at looking at efficiency of near-transparent quality.

Speed doesn't mean much either, as libaom has gotten lots of performance tuning. The libvpx/libaom codecs are sort of weird combinations of reference encoders and production encoders.

Quote:
Have reference encoders ever been integrated into ffmpeg? I mean, I might be wrong, but I don't really remember any of them...
I guess we're gonna have to wait for x266 work to begin before we'll see anything in ffmpeg...
Yeah, reference decoders are typically too slow for practical use, and carry a ton of complexity as they support ALL the features of the bitstream, not those in targeting Profiles and Levels. Practical decoders start by focusing on a practical subset of features, optimizing those, and then adding optimization of more features once the basics get done. For example, AV1 decoders got fast at 8-bit decode before they spent much time on 10-bit.
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Old 13th August 2020, 20:29   #313  |  Link
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Thanks for the reply. I actually aware of the she part. It's just that the last time i heard of him working on anything was when DS was still a he thus the reason for using he instead of she. Anyway, i wish her well.
She was definitely active in consulting and licensing during and after her transition. She remained quite active in development well after her participation in public discussions had tapered off.

As a side point, best practice is to refer to someone as having been their current gender retroactively, as someone's internal identity is very often established well before their public identity conforms to that.

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Other than this new VVC, I also hope the developer can squeeze some more juice out of the current x265. Do you think there are still much potential in x265, especially with regard to efficiency improvement?
Compression efficiency? Sure, there's plenty of room to keep optimizing. Even MPEG-2 has seen material improvements over the last few years, and HEVC has SO many.

Beamr has demonstrated some very promising improvements over x265. I bet the ABR required for a given MOS in HEVC can drop another 40-50% over the next decade, given how many tools there are an how much flexibility there is to apply them. Moore's Law gives us more MIPs/pixel every year. The whole field of applying AI/ML to improving encoding is still new, and promises some really big improvements. There are whole approaches to interframe tuning that are only just being poked at today.

I'd expect we're ~2 years out from the best VVC production encoders being materially better than the best HEVC encoders in quality @ bitrate @ perf.
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Old 14th August 2020, 16:01   #314  |  Link
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VTM v10.0 is out, large changelog: https://vcgit.hhi.fraunhofer.de/jvet...eases/VTM-10.0
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Old 23rd August 2020, 18:38   #315  |  Link
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It's not clear why you feel entitled to share your opinion in this topic. If you refuse to touch anything not totally opensource/free, then what are you doing in this topic?
why you feel entitled to comment about my opinion in this topic ?
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Old 24th August 2020, 03:16   #316  |  Link
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Well, generally the discussion should be relevant and move the topic forward.

Irrelevant personal opinions, while valid, add nothing of value to the community. And that is what doom9 is, a community, not your personal opinion space.
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Old 25th August 2020, 15:05   #317  |  Link
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New upload: VTM Encoder Version 10.0 [Windows][GCC 10.2.0][64 bit] 16bc143c
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Old 2nd September 2020, 02:14   #318  |  Link
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For me the big surprise is the AV1 MPEG-4.
I have to agree with this - it's very odd that all Yotube AV1 videos are encapsulated in MP4 rather than webm/mkv.
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Old 2nd September 2020, 02:51   #319  |  Link
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I'm sure YouTube is doing this for a good reason. I wouldn't be surprised if this is because the tooling surrounding fragmented MP4 is vastly more widespread than the tooling surrounding MKV, especially on the client side. While it's possible to deliver content using MPEG DASH and WebM segments, this isn't something most players support, so almost nobody does it. I'm only aware of YouTube ever having done this.

fMP4 is widely used in both DASH and HLS now, and is getting more and more widespread device support. Also factor in that when encrypting content it's desirable to have fMP4 with AES-CBCS encryption so you can take advantage of Widevine, PlayReady, and FairPlay all from a single set of files (delivered via DASH or HLS as clients prefer).

All of that is possible with fMP4, in a way that's broadly compatible. I don't think the same can be said for WebM.

MP4 is a good container format, and it's the way forward for all scalable video delivery to customers (except for ultra low latency cases where RTP / WebRTC are still better suited). We have all the new contribution protocols like SRT and RIST, and all the new "SDI replacement" protocols like NDI to handle the professional content production cases for live too
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Old 2nd September 2020, 17:32   #320  |  Link
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I have to agree with this - it's very odd that all Yotube AV1 videos are encapsulated in MP4 rather than webm/mkv.
Why WOULD it be in MKV? It's not like MKV is better engineered or something, or handles scenarios that MPEG-4 can't.

I think the practical difference is the .mkv extension only gets opened by players who can handle the rich elements, so a too-simple player doesn't even try. Which is a valid reason to use it when trying to package up a whole media experience into a single file for download.

In the adaptive streaming world, things like subtitles and alternate languages are handled with URLs to specific files in the manifest, so only the needed assets for a given session need to get downloaded.
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