AMD, Intel and Nvidia driver issues and last recommended version - Page 67

VBB · 29th May 2020, 02:59

I see you're up late. OK, so what happens if we disable dithering at the driver level? I noticed it removed some of the smoothing from my gradient tests, but it didn't introduce any new banding. Playback of normal content was noticeably sharper.

huhn · 29th May 2020, 03:11

i tried the tool at 6 bit without dithering on the desktop it's "clearly" not applied on everything. so i don't know where it put's it self. does it work similar to reshade and only effact d3d programs?

nvidia was now tested to be bit perfect by madshi for envy development using capture cards.
or in short nothing should happen if no dithering is needs and banding should be the result if it is needed.

VBB · 29th May 2020, 03:15

Right, so you would think, but in an all 10-bit chain, there is a very noticeable difference between Nvidia dithering on or off. This applies to playing back both 8- and 10-bit content. That's why I'm asking, because I was always under the impression that the video card doesn't dither if no dithering is needed. I noticed the difference in both RGB and YCbCr output, btw.

huhn · 29th May 2020, 03:19

if you output YCbCr you need dithering.
if it is full range RGB you may not need it else you pretty much always need it.

and source bit deep is irrelevant.

chros · 29th May 2020, 10:36

VBB uses ycbcr 4:2:2 10 bit output.
madvr 10 bit RGB -> ycbcr 4:2:2 10 bit : dithering is needed after every conversion step (in this case at nvidia driver)

@VBB: how did you test nvidia dithering? sample file?

Klaus1189 · 29th May 2020, 16:19

@VBB: added info to 445.xx

@brazen1: added in Notes to Nvidia section, because too many versions affected

I had cut shorten a bit, the post is to long, in the future I will have to split AMD and Nvidia into the first two posts, we'll see

mclingo · 29th May 2020, 19:26

20.5.1 is looking good for me, i can now get FULL RGB with 1080p with HDR, for some reason everythign after 20.3.1 gave me raised blacks, this is the first fully working driver i've had since I bought my RX5700 !!! yippeee....

not tested anything else yet though

VBB · 29th May 2020, 21:08

Thanks, Klaus!

@chros - Yeah, after my little discussion here with huhn and also reading the first few introductory posts of the madVR thread again, I now understand better how it all works in theory. Having said that, without any driver dithering, what exactly should I be seeing? Increased banding due to reduced noise?

I tested this once again with my usual banding tests from both the AVS as well as the S&M discs.

huhn · 29th May 2020, 21:49

if the tool is working in that eco system you should get 12 bit banding with 12 bit(should be close to invisible) or 8 bit with 8 bit output as an example.
it should be pretty much the same as madVR with disabled dithering.

with full range RGB nothing should change.

VBB · 29th May 2020, 22:07

Thanks, huhn. I'll do some tests with full range RGB later. That tool makes it so easy to switch. The only thing missing is refresh rate.

kostik · 29th May 2020, 22:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by VBB

Thanks, huhn. I'll do some tests with full range RGB later. That tool makes it so easy to switch. The only thing missing is refresh rate.

You can combine it with Display Changer (DC not DC2) which will change refresh rate and create one batch file for each mode

chros · 29th May 2020, 22:58

DC2 is also fine, that's what I use to change resolution and refresh rate.

VBB · 5th June 2020, 01:22

Some observations on Nvidia dithering after using the tool for a while now:

- The default Nvidia setting for dithering seems to be "auto".
- By default, there is no driver dithering with RGB, as expected, but it can be enabled.
- By default, there is less than 10-bit driver dithering with YUV, even when the output is set to greater than 8-bit.
- Dithering applies to everything, including the desktop. This is most obvious when forcing 6-bit dithering, as the noise then becomes highly visible.

If you enable dithering for RGB, you can get rid of any banding in the LG OLEDs' PC mode, even in HDR. The downside is an increase in noise level, which might not be tolerable for everyone. Certainly not for me, but it's fun to test, and it might be perfectly acceptable for gamers. After all this testing, I am back to my old YUV422, 10-bit, normal HDMI. It's the "Triple Dither™" that makes it look great after all (driver+madVR+display processing).

huhn · 5th June 2020, 04:06

what did you do to get 6 bit working it's clearly not working here.

VBB · 5th June 2020, 04:15

That tool I linked to earlier allows you to do that. I used nvcolorcontrol.exe 8 (this is the driver bit-depth) RGB (color space) 1 (this enables dithering) 0 (this is 6-bit) 4 (for temporal, but you can use whatever you like) 0 (for SDR), so nvcolorcontrol 8 RGB 1 0 4 0

huhn · 5th June 2020, 04:49

ok it doesn't work with dithering disabled or mode 0.

temporal is horrendously bad.

VBB · 5th June 2020, 06:01

Well, yeah, disabled turns dithering off altogether. Mode 0 is auto, which you can't be sure what it does exactly. 6-bit just proves that you can make even the worst banding smooth, and it'll make all the old plasma guys feel nostalgic

What do you consider the best type of dithering, since you dislike temporal? With 10-bit and even 8-bit, I can't see the noise, and I sit less than 5 feet from my 65".

huhn · 5th June 2020, 07:08

didn't check the rest in detail if they are not random dithering they should be pretty transparent i need to use dithering test images for this but it's hard for me to care if i can just avoid it.

i don't even know why they would add temporal if you can't use it for what it is made for.
i mean nvidia get's 60 hz in and outputs 60 hz so temporal can not be used as it should be...

maybe it's made for half frame rate vsync games.

SamuriHL · 11th June 2020, 23:15

Ya know....I really wish Windows would stop F***ING with my drivers! I was content and happy on 442.74. Apparently Windows decided to upgrade my drivers for me. Holy God how can any of you stand the latest nVidia driver?!?! Seriously it broke everything for me. HDR was a complete mess while triggering HDR it was not outputting in the correct color space (even though it claimed to be bt.2020). Even SDR was a complete mess. No one else has seen this? I went back to 442.74 and I'm back to video bliss.

huhn · 12th June 2020, 00:20

sorry didn't update in a long time and could be that the windows update driver is broken so everyone that upgrades normally doesn't notice.

29th May 2020, 02:59	#1321 \| Link
VBB Registered User Join Date: May 2016 Location: Long Beach, CA, USA Posts: 620	I see you're up late. OK, so what happens if we disable dithering at the driver level? I noticed it removed some of the smoothing from my gradient tests, but it didn't introduce any new banding. Playback of normal content was noticeably sharper. __________________ Henry \| LG OLED65C7P \| Denon AVR-X3500H \| ELAC Uni-Fi x7 \| ELAC Debut 2.0 SUB3030 x2 \| NVIDIA SHIELD TV Pro 2019 \| Plex

29th May 2020, 03:15	#1323 \| Link
VBB Registered User Join Date: May 2016 Location: Long Beach, CA, USA Posts: 620	Right, so you would think, but in an all 10-bit chain, there is a very noticeable difference between Nvidia dithering on or off. This applies to playing back both 8- and 10-bit content. That's why I'm asking, because I was always under the impression that the video card doesn't dither if no dithering is needed. I noticed the difference in both RGB and YCbCr output, btw. __________________ Henry \| LG OLED65C7P \| Denon AVR-X3500H \| ELAC Uni-Fi x7 \| ELAC Debut 2.0 SUB3030 x2 \| NVIDIA SHIELD TV Pro 2019 \| Plex

29th May 2020, 10:36	#1325 \| Link
chros Registered User Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 2,323	VBB uses ycbcr 4:2:2 10 bit output. madvr 10 bit RGB -> ycbcr 4:2:2 10 bit : dithering is needed after every conversion step (in this case at nvidia driver) @VBB: how did you test nvidia dithering? sample file? __________________ Ryzen 5 2600,Asus Prime b450-Plus,16GB,MSI GTX 1060 Gaming X 6GB(v398.18),Win10 LTSC 1809,MPC-BEx64+LAV+MadVR,Yamaha RX-A870,LG OLED77G2(2160p@23/24/25/29/30/50/59/60Hz) \| madvr config

29th May 2020, 19:26	#1327 \| Link
mclingo Registered User Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 1,348	20.5.1 is looking good for me, i can now get FULL RGB with 1080p with HDR, for some reason everythign after 20.3.1 gave me raised blacks, this is the first fully working driver i've had since I bought my RX5700 !!! yippeee.... not tested anything else yet though __________________ LG OLED EF950-YAM RX-V685-RYZEN 3600 - 16GBRAM - WIN10 RX 5700 - https://www.videohelp.com/software/madVR/old-versions

29th May 2020, 21:08	#1328 \| Link
VBB Registered User Join Date: May 2016 Location: Long Beach, CA, USA Posts: 620	Thanks, Klaus! @chros - Yeah, after my little discussion here with huhn and also reading the first few introductory posts of the madVR thread again, I now understand better how it all works in theory. Having said that, without any driver dithering, what exactly should I be seeing? Increased banding due to reduced noise? I tested this once again with my usual banding tests from both the AVS as well as the S&M discs. __________________ Henry \| LG OLED65C7P \| Denon AVR-X3500H \| ELAC Uni-Fi x7 \| ELAC Debut 2.0 SUB3030 x2 \| NVIDIA SHIELD TV Pro 2019 \| Plex

29th May 2020, 03:11	#1322 \| Link
huhn Registered User Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 7,926	i tried the tool at 6 bit without dithering on the desktop it's "clearly" not applied on everything. so i don't know where it put's it self. does it work similar to reshade and only effact d3d programs? nvidia was now tested to be bit perfect by madshi for envy development using capture cards. or in short nothing should happen if no dithering is needs and banding should be the result if it is needed.

29th May 2020, 03:19	#1324 \| Link
huhn Registered User Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 7,926	if you output YCbCr you need dithering. if it is full range RGB you may not need it else you pretty much always need it. and source bit deep is irrelevant.

29th May 2020, 16:19	#1326 \| Link
Klaus1189 Registered User Join Date: Feb 2015 Location: Bavaria Posts: 1,667	@VBB: added info to 445.xx @brazen1: added in Notes to Nvidia section, because too many versions affected I had cut shorten a bit, the post is to long, in the future I will have to split AMD and Nvidia into the first two posts, we'll see

29th May 2020, 21:49	#1329 \| Link
huhn Registered User Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 7,926	if the tool is working in that eco system you should get 12 bit banding with 12 bit(should be close to invisible) or 8 bit with 8 bit output as an example. it should be pretty much the same as madVR with disabled dithering. with full range RGB nothing should change.

29th May 2020, 22:07	#1330 \| Link
VBB Registered User Join Date: May 2016 Location: Long Beach, CA, USA Posts: 620	Thanks, huhn. I'll do some tests with full range RGB later. That tool makes it so easy to switch. The only thing missing is refresh rate. __________________ Henry \| LG OLED65C7P \| Denon AVR-X3500H \| ELAC Uni-Fi x7 \| ELAC Debut 2.0 SUB3030 x2 \| NVIDIA SHIELD TV Pro 2019 \| Plex

29th May 2020, 22:58	#1332 \| Link
chros Registered User Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 2,323	DC2 is also fine, that's what I use to change resolution and refresh rate. __________________ Ryzen 5 2600,Asus Prime b450-Plus,16GB,MSI GTX 1060 Gaming X 6GB(v398.18),Win10 LTSC 1809,MPC-BEx64+LAV+MadVR,Yamaha RX-A870,LG OLED77G2(2160p@23/24/25/29/30/50/59/60Hz) \| madvr config

5th June 2020, 01:22	#1333 \| Link
VBB Registered User Join Date: May 2016 Location: Long Beach, CA, USA Posts: 620	Some observations on Nvidia dithering after using the tool for a while now: - The default Nvidia setting for dithering seems to be "auto". - By default, there is no driver dithering with RGB, as expected, but it can be enabled. - By default, there is less than 10-bit driver dithering with YUV, even when the output is set to greater than 8-bit. - Dithering applies to everything, including the desktop. This is most obvious when forcing 6-bit dithering, as the noise then becomes highly visible. If you enable dithering for RGB, you can get rid of any banding in the LG OLEDs' PC mode, even in HDR. The downside is an increase in noise level, which might not be tolerable for everyone. Certainly not for me, but it's fun to test, and it might be perfectly acceptable for gamers. After all this testing, I am back to my old YUV422, 10-bit, normal HDMI. It's the "Triple Dither™" that makes it look great after all (driver+madVR+display processing). __________________ Henry \| LG OLED65C7P \| Denon AVR-X3500H \| ELAC Uni-Fi x7 \| ELAC Debut 2.0 SUB3030 x2 \| NVIDIA SHIELD TV Pro 2019 \| Plex

5th June 2020, 04:06	#1334 \| Link
huhn Registered User Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 7,926	what did you do to get 6 bit working it's clearly not working here.

5th June 2020, 04:15	#1335 \| Link
VBB Registered User Join Date: May 2016 Location: Long Beach, CA, USA Posts: 620	That tool I linked to earlier allows you to do that. I used nvcolorcontrol.exe 8 (this is the driver bit-depth) RGB (color space) 1 (this enables dithering) 0 (this is 6-bit) 4 (for temporal, but you can use whatever you like) 0 (for SDR), so nvcolorcontrol 8 RGB 1 0 4 0 __________________ Henry \| LG OLED65C7P \| Denon AVR-X3500H \| ELAC Uni-Fi x7 \| ELAC Debut 2.0 SUB3030 x2 \| NVIDIA SHIELD TV Pro 2019 \| Plex

5th June 2020, 04:49	#1336 \| Link
huhn Registered User Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 7,926	ok it doesn't work with dithering disabled or mode 0. temporal is horrendously bad.

5th June 2020, 06:01	#1337 \| Link
VBB Registered User Join Date: May 2016 Location: Long Beach, CA, USA Posts: 620	Well, yeah, disabled turns dithering off altogether. Mode 0 is auto, which you can't be sure what it does exactly. 6-bit just proves that you can make even the worst banding smooth, and it'll make all the old plasma guys feel nostalgic What do you consider the best type of dithering, since you dislike temporal? With 10-bit and even 8-bit, I can't see the noise, and I sit less than 5 feet from my 65". __________________ Henry \| LG OLED65C7P \| Denon AVR-X3500H \| ELAC Uni-Fi x7 \| ELAC Debut 2.0 SUB3030 x2 \| NVIDIA SHIELD TV Pro 2019 \| Plex

5th June 2020, 07:08	#1338 \| Link
huhn Registered User Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 7,926	didn't check the rest in detail if they are not random dithering they should be pretty transparent i need to use dithering test images for this but it's hard for me to care if i can just avoid it. i don't even know why they would add temporal if you can't use it for what it is made for. i mean nvidia get's 60 hz in and outputs 60 hz so temporal can not be used as it should be... maybe it's made for half frame rate vsync games.

11th June 2020, 23:15	#1339 \| Link
SamuriHL Registered User Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 5,351	Ya know....I really wish Windows would stop F***ING with my drivers! I was content and happy on 442.74. Apparently Windows decided to upgrade my drivers for me. Holy God how can any of you stand the latest nVidia driver?!?! Seriously it broke everything for me. HDR was a complete mess while triggering HDR it was not outputting in the correct color space (even though it claimed to be bt.2020). Even SDR was a complete mess. No one else has seen this? I went back to 442.74 and I'm back to video bliss. __________________ HTPC: Windows 11, AMD 5900X, RTX 3080, Pioneer Elite VSX-LX303, LG G2 77" OLED

12th June 2020, 00:20	#1340 \| Link
huhn Registered User Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 7,926	sorry didn't update in a long time and could be that the windows update driver is broken so everyone that upgrades normally doesn't notice.