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Old 14th December 2015, 16:28   #34621  |  Link
THEAST
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Yeah, Crossfire has repeatedly being reported as causing problems with madVR, unfortunately.
So, there is no way to prevent the crashes without disabling Crossfire globally? I'm not trying to accelerate madVR's computation with crossfire, mind you, but rather, I am trying to find out why the crashes happen even though crossfire is not enabled for MPC-HC/madVR and is only enabled for applications that specifically have a profile.
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Old 14th December 2015, 16:30   #34622  |  Link
mogli
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Or are you saying that every time the old version reported a repeated frame, you got a visual stutter? That would be something completely different, of course!
Yes, before the current version repeated frames were reported and visual stutter occured at that very moment. Now there's only the latter.

Note that this only seems to happen when fps is almost the same as the display rate. It took me some time to remember that the interlaced NTSC DVDs (actual video, not film) will have there frames doubled by DXVA deinterlacing, therefore running 59 fps at 60 Hz. This seems to be hard for FRC. (No way around starting to use ReClock, it seems?)
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Only about 1-2 of those 60 frames will be blended/unique. This is the way smooth motion frc works, so listing such repeated frames in the ctrl+j menu doesn't make much sense, imho.
madVR never did report such repeated frames, at least not for me. When viewing a 24 fps movie at 60 Hz with FRC on I never got even one repeated frame reported in any version. Or do you want to say, this was by accident, because each and every frame was unique or blended, so that there never was any actual repeated frame?
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Old 14th December 2015, 16:39   #34623  |  Link
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Originally Posted by ryrynz View Post
No. If it's already installed all you need to do is copy it over the old files.
k thx
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Old 14th December 2015, 16:59   #34624  |  Link
madshi
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Originally Posted by nevcairiel View Post
Are there any smart ideas how to properly configure a display for HDR? I could set it to its maximum brightness and measure this, and tell madVR about it.
However, the maximum brightness is far above what I find "pleasing" for SDR movies, or even the desktop/player UI, so its really not "good" to configure it to that.

Of course I could tell madVR about the brightness of my average setup, but then there is nothing to gain from HDR at all.
That's a pretty good question. I suppose once HDR content is around, many users will have the same problem. To be honest, I've no simple solution available right now. I suppose one option would be to define a peak nits level for SDR content. In that case madVR would simply render SDR videos darker. The disadvantage of that solution would be that a part of the 16-235 data range would go unused, which would be a shame. But then, I suppose dithering is good enough to handle that.

Another option would be to use different presets in the TV, but only some TVs support that, and the lack of auto switching could be quickly become annoying.

Edit: My idea above would only work for video playback, obviously, it would not do anything for desktop or player GUI. If you need a solution for that, too, maybe one option would be to misuse the GPU gamma ramps to make everything darker? That should work for desktop and media player GUI. However, GPU gamma ramps don't use dithering, I think, so it would not be a good solution for image quality.

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Originally Posted by THEAST View Post
So, there is no way to prevent the crashes without disabling Crossfire globally? I'm not trying to accelerate madVR's computation with crossfire, mind you, but rather, I am trying to find out why the crashes happen even though crossfire is not enabled for MPC-HC/madVR and is only enabled for applications that specifically have a profile.
That's a question you'd have to ask AMD. I don't think there's anything I can do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mogli View Post
Yes, before the current version repeated frames were reported and visual stutter occured at that very moment. Now there's only the latter.

Note that this only seems to happen when fps is almost the same as the display rate. It took me some time to remember that the interlaced NTSC DVDs (actual video, not film) will have there frames doubled by DXVA deinterlacing, therefore running 59 fps at 60 Hz. This seems to be hard for FRC. (No way around starting to use ReClock, it seems?)

madVR never did report such repeated frames, at least not for me. When viewing a 24 fps movie at 60 Hz with FRC on I never got even one repeated frame reported in any version. Or do you want to say, this was by accident, because each and every frame was unique or blended, so that there never was any actual repeated frame?
Ok, so I misunderstood your original report. I didn't think there was visual stutter. So I suppose I should revert the OSD change.

What fill state do the queues have when that stuttering occurs? How many frames are you presenting in advance? Or did you disable the "present several frames in advance" option? FWIW, it's recommended to use that option because it increases presentation reliability.

Last edited by madshi; 14th December 2015 at 17:01.
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Old 14th December 2015, 17:05   #34625  |  Link
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
That's a pretty good question. I suppose once HDR content is around, many users will have the same problem. To be honest, I've no simple solution available right now. I suppose one option would be to define a peak nits level for SDR content. In that case madVR would simply render SDR videos darker. The disadvantage of that solution would be that a part of the 16-235 data range would go unused, which would be a shame. But then, I suppose dithering is good enough to handle that.
double HDMI connection should be possible in the near future.

switching the HDMI output on a TV doesn't sound too terrible.

and DP 1.3 to HDMI 2.0 should work with an passive adapter.
you are simply way ahead of time with that feature.

but i don't think leaving the TV at a high brightness for SDR content is a good idea. none OLED screens will lose a lot of CR this way. and local dimming has a enough of problems already without this high brightness.
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Old 14th December 2015, 17:39   #34626  |  Link
Thunderbolt8
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
3) HDR content is encoded using a totally different transfer ("gamma") curve. So playing HDR content with a media player and display which don't understand the new transfer function won't look good/correct. It will look totally washed out.
So does this mean even when using madVR for watching an UHD Blu-ray on my current plasma TV (VT60) that it will look bad/not right?
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Old 14th December 2015, 18:39   #34627  |  Link
nevcairiel
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Originally Posted by Thunderbolt8 View Post
So does this mean even when using madVR for watching an UHD Blu-ray on my current plasma TV (VT60) that it will look bad/not right?
No, madVR will correct that.
Note however that not all UHD Blu-rays will use HDR, in fact most will not. There may even be two releases of movies, one in HDR and one SDR.
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Old 14th December 2015, 19:11   #34628  |  Link
fairchild
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Thanks for new version Madshi, I have a quick question though. How do we know what to set the display peak luminance to? I have an older 1080p 32" EX400 Sony LCD and a 1080p 55" VT60 Panasonic Plasma. Both by default are set to 600 nits. Not sure how or where to find the correct setting. I know one thing is for certain, the plasma is a much higher end display which may affect this setting?
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Old 14th December 2015, 19:15   #34629  |  Link
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Originally Posted by fairchild View Post
Thanks for new version Madshi, I have a quick question though. How do we know what to set the display peak luminance to?
Sometimes its in the documentation, otherwise you have to measure it.
Note that documented peak luminance will always refer to 100% backlight setting, which you may not find good for general watching purposes, like myself.
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Old 14th December 2015, 19:17   #34630  |  Link
James Freeman
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
4) The new transfer function directly maps each pixel to a specific desired luminance value (in "nits" or cd/mē). Possible values are 0 nits up to 10,000 nits. However, videos don't have to use the full 0 - 10,000 range, they often top out at either 4,000 nits or 1,200 nits (from what I've seen).
First, Thank you for this pioneer build!

Questions:
How can you really know in what range the studio mastered their movie? Seen where?

Judging by what I see with madTestPattern, how did you know what region is more important to compress and what to clip?
With 1200nit mastered content (presumably), the whole range is compressed.
With 4000nit, again practically the whole range is compressed.
Doesn't that mean that the movie will be too dark overall just so that we will be able to see the super bright parts?
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Old 14th December 2015, 19:17   #34631  |  Link
TheElix
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
The crash is when doing error diffusion. You could try updating your GPU driver, maybe that helps?

In order to find the failure to enter FSE mode, I'll need another log with the debug OSD (Ctrl+J) active while recording the log, because having the debug OSD active adds some more information to the log that I need in this case.
Madshi, thank you for your patience and for finding time to look into my problem. I have switched to Random Dithering and it seems to fix crashes. But at around the same time when it crashed previously now the video hangs up. It appears like the video goes in an endless loop of several frames while the audio keeps playing.

Here's the log with the debug OSD: https://yadi.sk/d/QDP2CRqHmDvVi Maybe you can tell why it doesn't go into FSE?

I've downloaded several test videos and tried the new HDR feature. I am currently using a professional NEC P241W monitor which is true 10 bit through DisplayPort cable and is capable of >Adobe RGB coverage and has a preset for DCI color space. I've set the maximum brightness which is 350 cd/m2 for this display and set the white point to 6500K. I used 400 cd/m2 in madVR settings. Well, it works. But I have horrible amount of dropped frames even though rendering is well under 10 ms. It looks like I cannot truly appreciate the difference now since I'm not getting 10 bit without FSE.

Also, you said that we may choose the maximum luminance between 0-10000 cd/m2, but the lowest I can choose now is 400 cd/m2. Is it intentional? Can we choose luminance in increments other than 100-200?

Last edited by TheElix; 14th December 2015 at 19:31.
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Old 14th December 2015, 19:26   #34632  |  Link
James Freeman
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I think the new "display peak luminance" feature only works if your display has a static and unchangable minimum light level (MLL) of the display.
Meaning, it only truly works if you have a FALD (full-array local dimming) display.
If your display can do 4,000nits but keeps the contrast ratio at 1000:1 it simply does not differ from any other SDR TV.

OR, I might be very wrong!
..and madVR actually compress the HDR content to 1000:1 and you should turn your SDR display brightness to max (400nit) to utilize the new feature...?

I need some HDR demo clips, anyone?
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Last edited by James Freeman; 14th December 2015 at 19:32.
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Old 14th December 2015, 19:31   #34633  |  Link
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What about Dolby Vision support in madVR? Is it something technically impossible to implement?
Thanks
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Old 14th December 2015, 19:38   #34634  |  Link
madshi
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Originally Posted by nevcairiel View Post
Note however that not all UHD Blu-rays will use HDR, in fact most will not.
I'm not sure about that. I've some content that is mastered at 1200 nits with DCI-P3. I could imagine that something like this might be suitable for any old and new movies. So it's quite possible that all (or most) movies might get HDR transfers. But I don't really know, we'll have to wait and see...

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Originally Posted by fairchild View Post
How do we know what to set the display peak luminance to?
FWIW, there's no exact science for how these HDR -> SDR conversions work. So the numbers in the settings dialog are rough estimates. Things also depend on the ambient light level in the room and how your display is calibrated. E.g. with a front projection setup, although the luminance is much lower than e.g. 600 nits, you might still get the best image quality by setting your display to 600 or 900 nits. So my recommendation is to simply play some HDR content and let you eyes decide which nits setting in madVR looks best in your setup.

Quote:
Originally Posted by James Freeman View Post
How can you really know in what range the studio mastered their movie? Seen where?
Install a nightly LAV build, then press Ctrl+J and the mastered nits level is displayed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by James Freeman View Post
Judging by what I see with madTestPattern, how did you know what region is more important to compress and what to clip?
With 1200nit mastered content (presumably), the whole range is compressed.
With 4000nit, again practically the whole range is compressed.
Doesn't that mean that the movie will be too dark overall just so that we will be able to see the super bright parts?
As mentioned before, there's not an exact science to this. The content has more range than any display, so there's way around compressing it somehow somewhere. How much to compress and maybe to clip depends on the video encoding luminance and the display peak luminance. I've selected values for each combination which with real world material looked "good" to me.

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Originally Posted by TheElix View Post
I have switched to Random Dithering and it seems to fix crashes. But at around the same time when it crashed previously now the video hangs up. It appears like the video goes in an endless loop of several frames while the audio keeps playing.
Oh well. Have you tried installing a different GPU driver version? Do you have any funny GPU related software installed/running? If so, try disabling it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheElix View Post
Here's the log with the debug OSD: https://yadi.sk/d/QDP2CRqHmDvVi Maybe you can tell why it doesn't go into FSE?
Will look later when I'm back at my development PC.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheElix View Post
I've downloaded several test videos and tried the new HDR feature. I am currently using a professional NEC P241W monitor which is true 10 bit through DisplayPort cable and is capable of >Adobe RGB coverage and has a preset for DCI color space. I've set the maximum brightness which is 350 cd/m2 for this display and set the white point to 6500K. I used 400 cd/m2 in madVR settings. Well, it works. But I have horrible amount of dropped frames even though rendering is well under 10 ms. It looks like I cannot truly appreciate the difference now since I'm not getting 10 bit without FSE.
Which queue is the first one empty? Probably the decoder queue? 4K HEVC decoding is really demanding!

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheElix View Post
Also, you said that we may choose the maximum luminance between 0-10000 cd/m2, but the lowest I can choose now is 400 cd/m2. Is it intentional?
No, 0 - 10000 is the range each pixel can have, not the range you can choose in the settings. The settings you can choose is which peak luminance your display has. If your display has a peak luminance of 0 nits then its broken because it doesn't display anything at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by James Freeman View Post
I think the new "display peak luminance" feature only works if your display has a static and unchangable minimum light level (MLL) of the display.
Meaning, it only truly works if you have a FALD (full-array local dimming) display.
If your display can do 4,000nits but keeps the contrast ratio at 1000:1 it simply does not differ from any other SDR TV.

OR, I might be very wrong!
..and madVR actually compress the HDR content to 1000:1 and you should turn your SDR display brightness to max (400nit) to utilize the new feature...?
Huh? No. Contrast got nothing to do with it. If you have a perfect black level, contrast automatically calculates to infinite, regardless of peak white luminance. And MLL got nothing to do with it, either.

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Originally Posted by Plutotype View Post
What about Dolby Vision support in madVR? Is it something technically impossible to implement?
I neither have any such content nor any technical spec. Also there are no decoders available for that. But my best guess is that it might be compatible to "conventional" HDR. I don't really know, though.
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Old 14th December 2015, 19:59   #34635  |  Link
James Freeman
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Originally Posted by madshi
Huh? No. Contrast got nothing to do with it. If you have a perfect black level, contrast automatically calculates to infinite, regardless of peak white luminance. And MLL got nothing to do with it, either.
Then what is the difference between 1,200 and 400 nit with 1000:1 display?
So this "peak brightness" selector only works if you have perfect blacks (stable and unchangable MLL where only the peak brightness changes, aka FALD or OLED display)??
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Old 14th December 2015, 20:05   #34636  |  Link
madshi
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I'm not sure why you keep trying to limit the "peak brightness selector" to specific conditions under which it might work or might not work. There is no such limit. And as I said, the display contrast got nothing to do with it.

HDR content that is mastered on e.g. a 4000 nits display should ideally be displayed on a 4000 nits display. If your display cannot do 4000 nits then madVR has to compress the highlights, otherwise the image would be much too dim overall. The difference between 1200 nits and 400 nits in the madVR "peak luminance" option is how much compression madVR applies to the luminance channel. The dimmer your display is the more compression madVR has to apply to make the image bright enough overall.

Why don't you simply download some HDR content and try different settings for that madVR option and see which works best for you? I think for most people with today's display technology, the default setting of 600 nits should work well. If the image is too dim/dull for your taste, try 400 nits. If the image is too bright, try 900 nits or higher.
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Old 14th December 2015, 20:12   #34637  |  Link
James Freeman
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I understand that it compresses the range, what I don't understand is whether you assume that the display has infinitely low black leve and the only thing that changes is the peak brightness level?

The only free content that is available now is a couple of seconds of Life of Pi and Exodus right?
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Old 14th December 2015, 20:20   #34638  |  Link
madshi
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We're talking about digital processing. madVR outputs video content with a black level value of 0 (or 16 when using TV levels). Whether or not the display has infinitely low black levels or not isn't something madVR has to worry about.

Basically what madVR does is modifying the "gamma curve" (in words that might make more sense to you), to account for the difference in peak luminance capabilities between the mastering display and your display.
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Old 14th December 2015, 20:26   #34639  |  Link
James Freeman
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Got it, I'm kinda' slow today.
Sorry about that.

BTW, it would by nice to bypass this feature for reference, or just to see how the image mapped across standard power curve gamma.
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Last edited by James Freeman; 14th December 2015 at 20:38.
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Old 14th December 2015, 21:20   #34640  |  Link
nevcairiel
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BTW, it would by nice to bypass this feature for reference, or just to see how the image mapped across standard power curve gamma.
Just switch to EVR or something. It looks terrible, totally lifeless and dull.
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