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Old 29th November 2020, 03:05   #60841  |  Link
Asmodian
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Originally Posted by tp4tissue View Post
Black people might look a little too red, but white people will just look a little bit pink. It's really not a big deal.
Why use a mode where skin tones look a bit off when we have one where they would look correct?

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Originally Posted by tp4tissue View Post
In most cases if you let the projector do its r709 clamp, it's very likely to undersaturate.
This one seems to slightly oversaturate in its BT.709 mode:


The DCI-P3 mode is a bit wonky. I am not sure reds change much. It looks like it is stretching the mids in DCI-P3 rather than clamping the max in BT.709:


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Originally Posted by tp4tissue View Post
I'd wager, Letting madvr assume SDR P3 gamut with the projector set to its full color space is going to be more accurate with less color compression faults between the 2 different maps.
I do not believe this is true with the SONY VPL-VW285ES projector.

Edit: I would agree with your advice if we didn't have any data on the display, it is better to be over saturated instead of undersaturated and using the native gamut is preferred. However, in this case I think the BT.709 mode is the better option for madVR, at least without a colorimeter to create a 3DLUT. I also agree that a colorimeter is much preferred, though even with one I might end up keeping that projector in BT.709 mode, its primaries look closer to BT.709.
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Old 29th November 2020, 04:22   #60842  |  Link
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Originally Posted by traykov77 View Post
Hi, is it normal to have 50-70 dropped frames when watching whole movie? My videocard is Nvidia 1070 , potplayer, whatever settings to put in madvr and tried custorm resolution always have 50-70 droped frames. MAdvr change resolution to 2160p23 automatically when play movie.
I got a gtx 1060, in PotPlayer I'm noticing when there is a mismatch between the display/composite rates then rendering times and dropped frames increase. I have to close PotPlayer for the desktop coming back to its set refresh rate before running PotPlayer again for another frame rates without that mismatch. Not sure what causes that issue.

Last edited by nsnhd; 29th November 2020 at 04:26.
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Old 29th November 2020, 05:29   #60843  |  Link
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I've got the hot keys mapped to my Harmony ...
Hey RXP (and anyone else using a Harmony remote), what Harmony model are you using? I think I need a remote to rule them all, but it must also be able to map keyboard keys (eg. Control+J). I'd like to get something that doesn't need an IR for the HTPC
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Old 29th November 2020, 09:16   #60844  |  Link
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Originally Posted by tp4tissue View Post
You're losing them on the TV, The drivers are almost certainly doing it right.
Bloody cables!.....when I was testing the new setting, I bypassed my amp so it was pc to tv........turns out it was the cable from the pc to the amp.

oh the joys of owning a HTPC.
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Old 29th November 2020, 11:09   #60845  |  Link
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broken cable is incapable of doing such a thing an AMP on the other hand clearly is.
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Old 29th November 2020, 11:17   #60846  |  Link
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I understand why you say that....hdmi should be binary - it works or not...but, there is difference, so it's a new one on me. Replaced the cable between the pc and the amp, and black levels are now as they should be - it's not a big difference, but its noticeable on the test clips.
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Old 29th November 2020, 11:54   #60847  |  Link
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works or not is such an inaccurate statement when it comes to binary data over cable.. lol.
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Old 29th November 2020, 12:10   #60848  |  Link
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lol
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Old 29th November 2020, 16:01   #60849  |  Link
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Originally Posted by ryrynz View Post
works or not is such an inaccurate statement when it comes to binary data over cable.. lol.
The CABLE is a LIE.
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Old 29th November 2020, 16:15   #60850  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Asmodian View Post
Why use a mode where skin tones look a bit off when we have one where they would look correct?

This one seems to slightly oversaturate in its BT.709 mode:

The DCI-P3 mode is a bit wonky. I am not sure reds change much. It looks like it is stretching the mids in DCI-P3 rather than clamping the max in BT.709:

I do not believe this is true with the SONY VPL-VW285ES projector.

Edit: I would agree with your advice if we didn't have any data on the display, it is better to be over saturated instead of undersaturated and using the native gamut is preferred. However, in this case I think the BT.709 mode is the better option for madVR, at least without a colorimeter to create a 3DLUT. I also agree that a colorimeter is much preferred, though even with one I might end up keeping that projector in BT.709 mode, its primaries look closer to BT.709.
And without a meter, neither the 709/p3 gamut are accurate So absent that dimension, I'm saying we may as well ensure we're getting that ferrari Red and lamborghini orange.

The goal of colorimetry isn't accurate color persay, it's good LOOKING colors.

Looking at those charts, the lower saturations look pretty close on both 709 and p3.

I'm still voting for p3. it's pretty close.

I also have great doubt that Lx2's output levels are setup properly. He's very likely fallen into the trap of gamma crush which <looks perceptually> more contrasty on some setups. Kind of like people who intentionally set their HDMI levels wrong on their Oleds.
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Old 29th November 2020, 21:15   #60851  |  Link
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Originally Posted by tp4tissue View Post
Kind of like people who intentionally set their HDMI levels wrong on their Oleds.
Not sure if you meant this as a comment on what I said the other day, but just to clear things up: The reason I intentionally mismatch the black levels on my OLED is that I use RGB full for the output and limited in madVR. Since I don't use my HTPC for anything other than media playback, setting the TV to limited doesn't hurt anything. It just saves one conversion/expansion, whether that's beneficial or not.
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Old 30th November 2020, 01:42   #60852  |  Link
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Originally Posted by tp4tissue View Post
And without a meter, neither the 709/p3 gamut are accurate So absent that dimension, I'm saying we may as well ensure we're getting that ferrari Red and lamborghini orange.
We do have colorimeter data for this projector model, why are you ignoring it? BT.709 is MUCH more accurate than DCI-P3. Displays are different unit to unit but not that different.

It doesn't even get significantly more saturated reds or oranges, look at the data, the saturation drops off as it nears 100% DCI-P3. The separation between saturation steps drops non-linearly, it is compressing the top of the range to allow the higher saturations in the lower range. Cyan looks especially bad, with the 80% and 100% saturation steps landing on top of each other. This means you lose even more detail in bright saturated colors.

Surly you do not prefer messing up skin tones and most other colors so you can very slightly increase the saturation of the brightest reds and oranges in an incorrect manner?

madVR will compress the DCI-P3 range into BT.709, with the knee roll off near 100% required by such a conversion. Sending this data to the projector in its DCI-P3 mode results in all the colors the projector could have accurately represented being oversaturated. The data near 100% BT.709 might have represented more saturated colors but the range has been compressed to max out at BT.709 so we don't know anymore. The projector further compresses this range, because its DCI-P3 mode has a similar non-linear range compression built into it, so it ends up oversaturating colors meant to be near 100% BT.709 while still under saturating near 100% DCI-P3. The result is all colors being wrong, and a severe loss of dynamic range at saturations nearing 100% BT.709.

That projector simply cannot display ferrari Red and lamborghini orange so don't sacrifice skin tones chasing the impossible.
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Old 30th November 2020, 05:10   #60853  |  Link
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Originally Posted by VBB View Post
Not sure if you meant this as a comment on what I said the other day, but just to clear things up: The reason I intentionally mismatch the black levels on my OLED is that I use RGB full for the output and limited in madVR. Since I don't use my HTPC for anything other than media playback, setting the TV to limited doesn't hurt anything. It just saves one conversion/expansion, whether that's beneficial or not.
If you have a meter, and you measured it, then you know it's working, you know that the contrast isn't lower, you know that the blacks are not crushed, you know that the saturations track evenly.

WITHOUT a meter, it's hard for us on the other side of the internet to make that call for lx2, Those of us who have seen enough calibrated gamma ramps know what to look for, this isn't the case for everyone else just winging it.
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Old 30th November 2020, 05:20   #60854  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Asmodian View Post
We do have colorimeter data for this projector model, why are you ignoring it? BT.709 is MUCH more accurate than DCI-P3. Displays are different unit to unit but not that different.

It doesn't even get significantly more saturated reds or oranges, look at the data, the saturation drops off as it nears 100% DCI-P3. The separation between saturation steps drops non-linearly, it is compressing the top of the range to allow the higher saturations in the lower range. Cyan looks especially bad, with the 80% and 100% saturation steps landing on top of each other. This means you lose even more detail in bright saturated colors.

Surly you do not prefer messing up skin tones and most other colors so you can very slightly increase the saturation of the brightest reds and oranges in an incorrect manner?

madVR will compress the DCI-P3 range into BT.709, with the knee roll off near 100% required by such a conversion. Sending this data to the projector in its DCI-P3 mode results in all the colors the projector could have accurately represented being oversaturated. The data near 100% BT.709 might have represented more saturated colors but the range has been compressed to max out at BT.709 so we don't know anymore. The projector further compresses this range, because its DCI-P3 mode has a similar non-linear range compression built into it, so it ends up oversaturating colors meant to be near 100% BT.709 while still under saturating near 100% DCI-P3. The result is all colors being wrong, and a severe loss of dynamic range at saturations nearing 100% BT.709.

That projector simply cannot display ferrari Red and lamborghini orange so don't sacrifice skin tones chasing the impossible.

If those measurements are accurate, then it's basically the saturation rendering intent as the default projector's mapping. I wouldn't call that more inaccurate. As for how much more saturated, it's not just about how much further, it's also how / where the curves begin, Assuming Sony is doing their job correctly, we can trust that their secret sauce is the better default, because WE have no other reference point for the projector's other settings. maybe the review got it wrong, maybe they have a setting enabled which makes that yellow wonky, we don't know. They could've gotten a bum projector unit. Having calibrated so many panels, I'm sure you know as well Every single one is different, no 2 alike, and they're almost all off in some way.

I don't think he will be sacrificing skin tones. Only very saturated skin tones will take on a small excess of color, it's nothing like the Orange people we had in 2006 tvs.

As for loss of dynamic range, I'm assuming Sony, the people who invented half this stuff DID what they did for a reason. pushing saturation over perceptual intent is probably an overall better presentation as tested with their focus groups.
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Old 30th November 2020, 05:48   #60855  |  Link
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I know you're a major advocate of using meters and LUTs, but there are definitely things you can just "wing" without either. Things like contrast, brightness, and sharpness are easily set correctly with the right test patterns. A level mismatch is therefore easy to spot, if you know what to look for. The average enthusiast doesn't absolutely need to know if the saturation tracks evenly, of if the gamma is spot on. In fact, even with a meter, you can't know for sure with HDR and Dolby Vision, especially with the incredibly unstable OLEDs. Like Asmodian suggested, if you don't have accurate numbers for your particular hardware, you go by the data that's out there, and you help madVR make the right decisions by giving it as much info as you can. LUTs are not working properly in the latest build, for example, so it's even more important to use the correct gamut and gamma.
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Old 30th November 2020, 06:14   #60856  |  Link
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well a 3D LUT can clearly not increass the brightness or the CR either fix the sharpness.

there are some sharpening patterns that only work with a good gamma calibration but that's it.

levels... a meter is one of the last things i would use to fix these.
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Old 30th November 2020, 15:27   #60857  |  Link
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Originally Posted by oldpainlesskodi View Post
I understand why you say that....but, there is difference. Replaced the cable between the pc and the amp, and black levels are now as they should be - it's not a big difference, but its noticeable on the test clips.
There is no way a cable itself is changing the levels. Disconnecting the cable may have reset something in the software config of the devices it was connecting. Or there's something hidden in your cable like a converting chip or something that either device detects to change its config (like how early Radeon HD cards detected when a genuine ATI DVI to HDMI adapter was present and only then allowed HDMI signaling). But it was not the cable itself changing the levels.
Did you try switching back to the old cable now that the levels are correct to be sure? Switching several times between them?
If you're happy now it's fine, but erroneously thinking it was the cable means there may be a hidden firmware/software issue in your devices that hasn't been resolved.
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The goal of colorimetry isn't accurate color persay, it's good LOOKING colors.
How can you say something like this when you're one of the most vocal supporters of meters? The only goal is accuracy, good looking colors is just a result of accuracy.
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Old 30th November 2020, 16:07   #60858  |  Link
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Yes, have retested by swapping cables again and and same results - like it said, it's not changing levels per se, just seems to be clipping on the blacks ever so slightly. Anyway, could be just something weird with my setup, so as long as I am happy, as they say, it's gooood.
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Old 30th November 2020, 16:38   #60859  |  Link
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How can you say something like this when you're one of the most vocal supporters of meters? The only goal is accuracy, good looking colors is just a result of accuracy.
Maybe he's wrong with other things but he's right with this one.
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Old 30th November 2020, 19:02   #60860  |  Link
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How do you scientifically define 'looking good' when it comes to image reproduction fidelity?
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