V-Nova Perseus video [s/codec/noise modeller] announced - Page 3

Motenai Yoda · 7th October 2015, 23:11

How it is different from the old film grain tecnology?
https://hopa.memberclicks.net/assets...gt_hpa2006.PDF

also why don't take the residual noise and model for the whole frame/gop a related high comprimible noise pattern and add it right after mdct and mv steps?

foxyshadis · 9th October 2015, 10:45

It's different in the sense that someone is actually implementing it. For all anyone knows, maybe it is just FGM, but FGM is unnecessarily complex for most use-cases.

dapperdan · 1st July 2016, 10:48

A sort-of review of the codec/noise modeller:

http://www.streamingmedia.com/Articl...1816&PageNum=1

They maintain an upbeat tone, but I think the data suggests that it's basically marketing BS? Certainly not living up to the early marketing. There's *something* there, but it seems ultra-niche and it's not clear to me that it's even much of a win in that niche.

kieranrk · 4th July 2016, 00:08

Here is a technical analysis:

http://codecs.multimedia.cx/?p=1136

Gravitator · 24th August 2017, 13:03

https://www.v-nova.com/perseus-video-compression-technology/

LigH · 24th August 2017, 13:56

Stills are useless. Marketing optimized stills are even more useless. Give us the tool and let us test.

sneaker_ger · 24th August 2017, 14:19

We've seen a similar picture of x265 vs x264 in the past. Happens with low bits/pixel. If you downscale the x264 encode will be much better (than low bpp x264). And if I'm not mistaken that's a core component of Perseus, i.e. downscale, encode via e.g. x264 and on playback decode H.264, upscale plus some postprocessing (with info from extra layer?).

LigH · 24th August 2017, 14:26

Yes, quite probably similar to mp3Pro or HE-AAC (low pass + spectral band modelling), just in the visual domain.

Motenai Yoda · 14th September 2017, 23:20

looks more like how progressive jpeg works, a low quality/resolution layer at the base, and one or more refinement layers at higher quality/resolution witch supply residual details (difference) into a space domain (maybe using the same mv analysis of the underlying stream, rather than an sbr or fgt.
Also this way they can stream out only the requested layers or only the base layer, and change how this base is encoded.

LigH · 15th September 2017, 01:17

True so far; but the HQ layer may store easier-to-compress patterns instead of the true detail; that's the reason to call it "modelling".

Knocks · 3rd August 2019, 22:18

I can't treat the whole Perseus thing like anything other than headline-grabbing BS, but here's something I ran into while researching digital TV standards in Europe, for what it's worth.

Sky Italia deploys PERSEUS compression for ‘IPTV’ in first DTH and STB implementation for codec

Italian company, Italian TV station, there's obviously some "home cooking" going on. But perhaps people who get this channel can chime in?

Blue_MiSfit · 4th August 2019, 01:53

Perseus is neat stuff, for sure

Maybe not a perfect fit for every use case, but there are definitely some very interesting cases. It's deployed in several real systems.

Atak_Snajpera · 4th August 2019, 11:04

Looks like that PERSEUS guys are smarter than people behind AV1 and VVC.

MAGIC!

birdie · 4th August 2019, 11:19

From https://www.v-nova.com/perseus-video...on-technology/

Quote:

The PERSEUS compression technology works in 2 ways:

PERSEUS Pro: An intra-only codec for lossless or visually lossless contribution, production and imaging workflows
PERSEUS Plus: A temporal codec where PERSEUS adds layers of detail and upscaling upon industry-standard codecs like H.264 and HEVC for unbeatable distribution efficiency to viewers

Looks like they don't have a homebrew codec per se.

dapperdan · 18th October 2019, 19:54

https://www.itu.int/en/ITU-T/Worksho...esentation.pdf

Still trying to figure out what Perseus actually is but since it's getting standardized by MPEG it does seem to be a real thing.

Seems like it could be something that could have just been baked into VVC, not sure why it's still being presented as a seperate layer rather than combined with other MPEG codecs. Royalties perhaps?

Blue_MiSfit · 20th October 2019, 03:55

Backwards compatibility. You can use Perseus with AVC and a device without a Perseus decoder can still play the 1/4 resolution AVC layer no problem.

Their proprietary real-time contribution encoders / decoders (Perseus Pro) are non backwards compatible.

shades · 4th March 2020, 00:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by dapperdan

https://www.itu.int/en/ITU-T/Worksho...esentation.pdf

Still trying to figure out what Perseus actually is but since it's getting standardized by MPEG it does seem to be a real thing.

Seems like it could be something that could have just been baked into VVC, not sure why it's still being presented as a seperate layer rather than combined with other MPEG codecs. Royalties perhaps?

PPro utilizes a unique hierarchical approach to layer detail and higher resolutions on to the underlying Intra-only frames. This combined with the very latest techniques in machine learning and optimised rate-control, deliver an industry-redefining level of video quality per bandwidth.

https://www.v-nova.com/v-nova-video-...logy/#perseus2

kolak · 6th October 2020, 23:15

Next-generation SMPTE VC-6 video production codec standard published...

https://news.creativecow.net/story/901934

zambelli · 15th October 2020, 08:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by kolak

Next-generation SMPTE VC-6 video production codec standard published...

https://news.creativecow.net/story/901934

I think that's a different V-Nova codec though, not Perseus. AFAIK Perseus is being standardized as MPEG-5 Part 2 (LCEVC).

7th October 2015, 23:11	#41 \| Link
Motenai Yoda Registered User Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 709	How it is different from the old film grain tecnology? https://hopa.memberclicks.net/assets...gt_hpa2006.PDF also why don't take the residual noise and model for the whole frame/gop a related high comprimible noise pattern and add it right after mdct and mv steps? __________________ powered by Google Translator Last edited by Motenai Yoda; 7th October 2015 at 23:32.

4th July 2016, 00:08	#44 \| Link
kieranrk Registered User Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: London, United Kingdom Posts: 707	Here is a technical analysis: http://codecs.multimedia.cx/?p=1136 __________________ Authoring Professional Blu-rays with x264 - Open Broadcast Encoder

24th August 2017, 13:56	#46 \| Link
LigH German doom9/Gleitz SuMo Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Germany, rural Altmark Posts: 6,782	Stills are useless. Marketing optimized stills are even more useless. Give us the tool and let us test. __________________ New German Gleitz board MediaFire: x264 \| x265 \| VPx \| AOM \| Xvid

24th August 2017, 14:26	#48 \| Link
LigH German doom9/Gleitz SuMo Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Germany, rural Altmark Posts: 6,782	Yes, quite probably similar to mp3Pro or HE-AAC (low pass + spectral band modelling), just in the visual domain. __________________ New German Gleitz board MediaFire: x264 \| x265 \| VPx \| AOM \| Xvid

14th September 2017, 23:20	#49 \| Link
Motenai Yoda Registered User Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 709	looks more like how progressive jpeg works, a low quality/resolution layer at the base, and one or more refinement layers at higher quality/resolution witch supply residual details (difference) into a space domain (maybe using the same mv analysis of the underlying stream, rather than an sbr or fgt. Also this way they can stream out only the requested layers or only the base layer, and change how this base is encoded. __________________ powered by Google Translator

9th October 2015, 10:45	#42 \| Link
foxyshadis Angel of Night Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Tangled in the silks Posts: 9,559	It's different in the sense that someone is actually implementing it. For all anyone knows, maybe it is just FGM, but FGM is unnecessarily complex for most use-cases.

1st July 2016, 10:48	#43 \| Link
dapperdan Registered User Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 201	A sort-of review of the codec/noise modeller: http://www.streamingmedia.com/Articl...1816&PageNum=1 They maintain an upbeat tone, but I think the data suggests that it's basically marketing BS? Certainly not living up to the early marketing. There's something there, but it seems ultra-niche and it's not clear to me that it's even much of a win in that niche.

24th August 2017, 13:03	#45 \| Link
Gravitator Registered User Join Date: May 2014 Posts: 292	https://www.v-nova.com/perseus-video-compression-technology/

24th August 2017, 14:19	#47 \| Link
sneaker_ger Registered User Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 5,565	We've seen a similar picture of x265 vs x264 in the past. Happens with low bits/pixel. If you downscale the x264 encode will be much better (than low bpp x264). And if I'm not mistaken that's a core component of Perseus, i.e. downscale, encode via e.g. x264 and on playback decode H.264, upscale plus some postprocessing (with info from extra layer?).

15th September 2017, 01:17	#50 \| Link
LigH German doom9/Gleitz SuMo Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Germany, rural Altmark Posts: 6,782	True so far; but the HQ layer may store easier-to-compress patterns instead of the true detail; that's the reason to call it "modelling". __________________ New German Gleitz board MediaFire: x264 \| x265 \| VPx \| AOM \| Xvid

3rd August 2019, 22:18	#51 \| Link
Knocks Registered User Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 48	I can't treat the whole Perseus thing like anything other than headline-grabbing BS, but here's something I ran into while researching digital TV standards in Europe, for what it's worth. Sky Italia deploys PERSEUS compression for ‘IPTV’ in first DTH and STB implementation for codec Italian company, Italian TV station, there's obviously some "home cooking" going on. But perhaps people who get this channel can chime in?

4th August 2019, 01:53	#52 \| Link
Blue_MiSfit Derek Prestegard IRL Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 5,989	Perseus is neat stuff, for sure Maybe not a perfect fit for every use case, but there are definitely some very interesting cases. It's deployed in several real systems.

4th August 2019, 11:04	#53 \| Link
Atak_Snajpera RipBot264 author Join Date: May 2006 Location: Poland Posts: 7,815	Looks like that PERSEUS guys are smarter than people behind AV1 and VVC. MAGIC! __________________ Windows 7 Image Updater - SkyLake\KabyLake\CoffeLake\Ryzen Threadripper

18th October 2019, 19:54	#55 \| Link
dapperdan Registered User Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 201	https://www.itu.int/en/ITU-T/Worksho...esentation.pdf Still trying to figure out what Perseus actually is but since it's getting standardized by MPEG it does seem to be a real thing. Seems like it could be something that could have just been baked into VVC, not sure why it's still being presented as a seperate layer rather than combined with other MPEG codecs. Royalties perhaps?

20th October 2019, 03:55	#56 \| Link
Blue_MiSfit Derek Prestegard IRL Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 5,989	Backwards compatibility. You can use Perseus with AVC and a device without a Perseus decoder can still play the 1/4 resolution AVC layer no problem. Their proprietary real-time contribution encoders / decoders (Perseus Pro) are non backwards compatible.

6th October 2020, 23:15	#58 \| Link
kolak Registered User Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Poland Posts: 2,843	Next-generation SMPTE VC-6 video production codec standard published... https://news.creativecow.net/story/901934 Last edited by kolak; 6th October 2020 at 23:31.

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