madVR - high quality video renderer (GPU assisted)

[dansrfe]

As far as I know. Limited is obsolete and if you're using it then you need to find a way to make Full RGB work with your system.

[jmonier]

Originally Posted by iSeries

In that case then, I'm lost. I understood LG's 'High' black setting to be 0-255 (PC levels) and 'Low' to be 16-235 (TV levels). Indeed, if I plug my TV into my PC using a regular VGA monitor cable, 'High' black level is a forced setting and cannot be changed.

As I said, the nomenclature is confusing. Your statements are all correct but what it means is this: High (0-255/PC levels) means that 0 is black; Low (16-235/TV levels) means that 16 is black. And Low is really 16-255 in the LG. That means that you will see flashing bars all the way to 255 in both High and Low.

So where exactly is the double conversion happening? MadVR outputs PC levels, my graphics card then outputs this as PC levels, and the TV displays it as PC levels.

I did say this already, but I'll try to explain further. With madVR set to PC levels means that it takes video black (16) and changes it to PC black (0) and also changes 235 to 255. This means that a monitor/TV that is set for PC levels will properly display black as black and not as dark gray. It also means that you can never see BTB and WTW.

So one conversion takes place in madVR. I, perhaps, confused things by referring to a second conversion in the TV. The TV has to perform a conversion from the digital signal to what you see on the screen in either case. For the High setting, 0 becomes black on the screen (complete absence of light). That is the second conversion that I was talking about, but I see now how it was confusing. For the Low setting 16 becomes black, which is where you want it for a signal that includes BTB and WTW.

If madVR is set to what is called TV levels (16-235), you will see BTB (bars 1-16 flashing) with the LG set to 'High' and you will NOT see BTB with the LG set to 'Low'. (As I said before, with the LG and, possibly, other sets, you will see WTW with either setting.)

There is a lot of confusion in the inclusion of 16-235 with the 'TV levels'. 'TV levels' means that you have an untouched signal where 16 is black and 235 is white. Unfortunately, it can easily be interpreted to mean that 16-235 has become 0-255. That is NOT correct.

'PC levels' actually means that the 'TV levels' have been converted to display correctly on a PC monitor where 0 is black.

[jmonier]

Originally Posted by Qaq

MadVR expands 16-235 (YUV) to 0-255 (RGB) by default. To pass it 'through' you need: 1) 0-255 RGB in video driver; 2) 0-255 RGB in display (HDMI input set as 'PC" (RGB), Black level set to High (0-255).

While 'PC levels' is the default setting in madVR, that means that madVR will convert 16-235 to 0-255.

If the TV/Monitor has a setting to display 16 as black (e.g. the 'Low' setting in the LG), you can set madVR to 'TV levels' and have the TV/Monitor do that conversion. That eliminates the conversion in madVR and moves it to the TV/Monitor where there is no penalty.

[jmonier]

Originally Posted by MSL_DK

Okay, now we know it. Then I ask do we get BTB and WTW from these settings? and it is not what we want to achieve?

Of course, we don't want to see BTB in normal viewing. That would produce a washed out picture with black becoming gray.

The only way you can see BTB under any conditions is to set madVR to 'TV levels'. Then you can see it on a TV/Monitor that is set to 'PC levels' (e.g. 'High' on the LG). With madVR set to 'PC levels', 16 is converted to 0 and the original 0-15 is thrown away, thus no BTB.

As I've said other places, you may see WTW for either TV/Monitor setting and that's not necessarily a bad thing. (At worst, normal program material will lose a slight amount of 'brightness'.)

[fairchild]

Originally Posted by dansrfe

As far as I know. Limited is obsolete and if you're using it then you need to find a way to make Full RGB work with your system.

There is more to it than that. In a PC that is not strictly being used for video playback (games, web browsing, etc.) then on TV's that don't seem to handle Full RGB, you get black crush on the desktop and in games. So instead of constantly switching depending on your application, you can set it and forget it using Limited RGB. (obviously this is not optimal and you will get some extra conversions but to my eye *not a hardcore videophile* I see absolutely no difference)

[iSeries]

Originally Posted by jmonier

As I said, the nomenclature is confusing. Your statements are all correct but what it means is this: High (0-255/PC levels) means that 0 is black; Low (16-235/TV levels) means that 16 is black. And Low is really 16-255 in the LG. That means that you will see flashing bars all the way to 255 in both High and Low.

I dont have time to read the whole post full but sorry this is not correct in my case at least. With my setup as it is with TV black level at high I only see flashing bars from 17-234 with a test video. As I said earlier, 16 is complete black and 235 is complete white with MadVR set to PC levels, ATI driver set to Full RGB, and TV black level set to High.

However, using the test image here: http://www.lagom.nl/lcd-test/all_tests.php all 32 bands are clearly distinguishable which is exactly how it should be if my TV is displaying PC levels 0-255.

Also, using the test images here: http://www.lagom.nl/lcd-test/all_nop...gradient-h.png the gradient test image has zero banding and the black level and white level images below it all display exactly as they should, ie visible below 16 and above 235.

[dansrfe]

The last 5 pages of this thread has carried out the disscussion of only levels. Not about madVR directly. This is precisely why madshi doesn't reply or update for weeks or months at a time. It's because the thread just goes on tangents and people infiltrate the thread with problems that are not directly related to the topic of the thread. Open a new thread for a disscussion about levels and related problems of calibration. This isn't a topic that is directly related to madVR and it causes more headache for people (not to mention the developer) to sift through these threads and try and get positive feedback or constructive criticism related to their software or topic.

[iSeries]

I partially agree that some of it has been off topic - although learning how to use MadVR properly with our individual setups is important and completely on topic as far as I'm concerned.

I disagree entirely that off topic posts are the reason why Madshi doesn't update or reply for a while though. I'm sure he's a very busy person and his life doesn't revolve around MadVR.

[jmonier]

Originally Posted by dansrfe

The last 5 pages of this thread has carried out the disscussion of only levels. Not about madVR directly. This is precisely why madshi doesn't reply or update for weeks or months at a time. It's because the thread just goes on tangents and people infiltrate the thread with problems that are not directly related to the topic of the thread. Open a new thread for a disscussion about levels and related problems of calibration. This isn't a topic that is directly related to madVR and it causes more headache for people (not to mention the developer) to sift through these threads and try and get positive feedback or constructive criticism related to their software or topic.

Every post of mine (and the posts I've responded to) have been directly aimed at level setting within madVR and the external settings needed to work with that.

[jmonier]

Originally Posted by iSeries

I dont have time to read the whole post full but sorry this is not correct in my case at least. With my setup as it is with TV black level at high I only see flashing bars from 17-234 with a test video. As I said earlier, 16 is complete black and 235 is complete white with MadVR set to PC levels, ATI driver set to Full RGB, and TV black level set to High.

If you don't read the whole post, how will you understand what I'm saying? If you want help, you have to co-operate, otherwise I'm wasting my time.

I'll say it once more and then I'm done: With madVR set to TV levels you will see 0-255 with the LG set to 'High' and 16-255 with the LG set to 'Low'. What you're reporting above is exactly what I said you would see with madVR set to PC levels, so what I said IS exactly correct in your case.

[iSeries]

Originally Posted by jmonier

If you don't read the whole post, how will you understand what I'm saying? If you want help, you have to co-operate, otherwise I'm wasting my time.

I'll say it once more and then I'm done: With madVR set to TV levels you will see 0-255 with the LG set to 'High' and 16-255 with the LG set to 'Low'. What you're reporting above is exactly what I said you would see with madVR set to PC levels, so what I said IS exactly correct in your case.

WTH, not fully co-operating? Sorry, didn't realise I wasn't complying.

What you have failed to provide is an explanation as to what exactly the problem is with the way I have things set up or a solution to what you believe is wrong. I am not convinced you are helping at all. So please, stand by your statement that you'll only say it once more and just leave it at that.

I'll go with what Nev said. If it looks correct to him, then that's good enough for me.

[joe42]

Originally Posted by nevcairiel

Videos are meant to be 16-235, if you set your system to show values outside of that range, that means the "normal black" at 16 won't be as black as it could be, or the "white" at 235 will not be as white as it could be.
Personally, i rather have the usual values look as good as they can instead of leaving some room to show the "unusual" values.

That sounds good to me, but I wonder how to set it up as you say.

I see four places to set things to either 0-255 or 16-235:

1) NVidia Control Panel

2) LAV Video decoder RGB Output Levels (for YUV ->RGB conversion) -- this actually adds a third choice "untouched (as input)"

3) MadVR output levels

4) Television

In order to do as you recommend above, is the correct procedure to set all four of those to 16-235? Or do some of them need to be 0-255?

[jmonier]

Originally Posted by iSeries

WTH, not fully co-operating? Sorry, didn't realise I wasn't complying.

What you have failed to provide is an explanation as to what exactly the problem is with the way I have things set up or a solution to what you believe is wrong. I am not convinced you are helping at all. So please, stand by your statement that you'll only say it once more and just leave it at that.

You stated very clearly that you didn't have time to read my entire post. So how can you say that I didn't provide an explanation, when you haven't read everything? If you won't read what I write, how is it that you can say that it is my fault?

[Andy o]

Originally Posted by joe42

That sounds good to me, but I wonder how to set it up as you say.

I see four places to set things to either 0-255 or 16-235:

1) NVidia Control Panel

2) LAV Video decoder RGB Output Levels (for YUV ->RGB conversion) -- this actually adds a third choice "untouched (as input)"

3) MadVR output levels

4) Television

In order to do as you recommend above, is the correct procedure to set all four of those to 16-235? Or do some of them need to be 0-255?

No, the problems people having above are with AMD. I don't think NV has the same pixel format output option. The one that you see on NV's control panel is not that, it's akin to the "dynamic range" option in the AMD CCC, which means it doesn't affect madVR (except probably when doing DXVA deinterlacing).

If you don't know exactly what it does, LAV video's output should be set to untouched. But anyway, this option only works when doing RGB conversion with it, which if you have checked all video formats as in the default settings video will probably be "untouched" anyway.

Regarding 3 and 4, the ideal way to set madVR is to PC levels (0-255), and your TV to 0-255 RGB input as well. The problem people above were having arises when some TVs can't accept a full RGB input.

[mr.duck]

Originally Posted by joe42

1) NVidia Control Panel

2) LAV Video decoder RGB Output Levels (for YUV ->RGB conversion) -- this actually adds a third choice "untouched (as input)"

3) MadVR output levels

4) Television

1) Controls hardware RGB conversion. Set to 16-235 and you will be sure to get grey blacks when using EVR and an ordinary computer monitor.

2) Ignore this. You should be outputting in NV12 etc.

3) Should be 0-255 if the display supports full range.

4) I assume that tells the TV what you are feeding it. So 3) and 4) should both be the same. Set both to 0-255 and madVR will do the conversion to full range. Set both to 16-235 and I would expect the TV to do the conversion.

[Rain1]

Originally Posted by joe42

That sounds good to me, but I wonder how to set it up as you say.

I see four places to set things to either 0-255 or 16-235:

1) NVidia Control Panel

2) LAV Video decoder RGB Output Levels (for YUV ->RGB conversion) -- this actually adds a third choice "untouched (as input)"

3) MadVR output levels

4) Television

In order to do as you recommend above, is the correct procedure to set all four of those to 16-235? Or do some of them need to be 0-255?

IIRC, there's an option in NV control panel that let video player controls that setting.

In my case, I set:

1) Let player control this setting.

2) Checked all output format in LAV, RGB output level: Untouched (as input).

3) PC levels & >= 8bit (for my monitor) in madVR.

4) Haven't tried this since I only used my monitor.

[FlashGordon]

I'm getting completely random freezes using any version of madVR higher than .65 it seems. I can't reproduce the problem and these freezes happen completely at random. It happens about once every 2-3 films so it isn't a problem that occurs with high frequency. I've tried updating and reverting video drivers (ATI), using different decoders, different splitters, and different media players and I still get freezing with any of the newer madvr versions. I haven't experienced any freezes using .65. Now I know that correlation =/= causation, but I can't think of anything else that could be causing this conflict. Does anyone here have any ideas?

[joe42]

I'm going to try to summarize what I have understood of the levels discussion. I'm not sure I have it all right, so please feel free to correct me.

First, is there a consensus that the video card should NOT be set to 16-235? If there is clipping or expansion to be done, let madVR do it. The video card should just output exactly what madVR does without alteration. Yes?

Second, it seems that setting LAV Video decoder to "untouched" is the best idea. Yes?

Finally, the two most controversial settings: madVR output TV (16-235) or PC (0-255) levels, and the television setting limited (16-235) or full (0-255). I think PC monitors can be assumed to always be "full" 0-255. I am ignoring televisions that have a "limited+WTW" 16-255 setting. I am going to list the four possible ways to set this pair of values:

A) madVR=TV , television=limited
Test pattern levels visible: 16-235

B) madVR=TV, television=full
Test pattern levels visible: 0-255

C) madVR=PC, television=limited
Test pattern levels visible: 30-218 ???
comment: madVR expands 16-235 to PC levels (eg., 16 goes to 0, 30 goes to 16, 218 goes to 235) but television only displays a limited subset of those levels and clips anything outside of 16-235 which would actually be 30-218 from the test pattern??? I'm not sure about this explanation

D) madVR=PC, television=full
Test pattern levels visible: 16-235
comment: madVR expands 16-235 to PC levels and television does not clip anything, however the BTB and WTW data was lost when madVR expanded 16-235 to PC levels


So which to choose out of A,B,C,D?

I cannot see any reason for ever choosing (C).

I think (A) and (D) will usually result in about the same display, although maybe (A) is superior since in (D) madVR has to do an expansion that might result in rounding error (banding or dithering)?

If you want to see BTB and WTW, then obviously your only choice is (B). But I think nevcairiel makes a good point that since most video and movie content is 16-235, there is no good reason to choose this since you are essentially compressing the dynamic range of the vast majority of content in order to see more gradations in a small fraction of available content.

So, it would seem that the best choice for most people would be (A). Unless you are setting up a PC monitor which has no "limited" mode, in which case you would go with (D).

Sound right?

[nevcairiel]

Originally Posted by joe42

Second, it seems that setting LAV Video decoder to "untouched" is the best idea. Yes?

That setting only applys if you use LAV Video to convert to RGB, which you shouldn't be doing if you use madVR.
For madVR, just leave every output format checked, and it'll do the right thing.

Originally Posted by joe42

So, it would seem that the best choice for most people would be (A). Unless you are setting up a PC monitor which has no "limited" mode, in which case you would go with (D).

I always preferred D.
You need to convert YUV to RGB, which will (if done right) result in floating point data (or at least higher precision integer), actually expanding that to 0-255 gives you a greater dynamic range when doing the quantization back to 8-bit integer then 16-235 does, so according to the math, it could potentially be better. Not sure if that difference is actually visible...

[Qaq]

More digits - less roundings. With test patterns I got 'proper' results (no flushing) with 16-235. But with 0-255 picture looks more detailed in dark areas to me, so...