tsMuxeR and Truehd - Page 3

iSeries · 22nd September 2011, 17:31

Hi,

Sorry I really should have mentioned, encodes with BDtoAVCHD always seem to come out a tiny bit too big for me as well with the preset sizes! Use a custom target size and reduce it a bit from the preset BD9 size, say 95%. I think it can determine accurately the bitrate needed to hit a particular target size, I just think the preset target sizes are too big.

You could use the medium preset if you are just doing a test, no need to wait for slow or veryslow.

m1ke486837 · 22nd September 2011, 22:44

No worries iSeries...I can adjust in the future.

I have basically decided that my panasonic player has issues playing avchd BD9 discs containing truehd audio. I may give multiavchd a try (thanks setarip_old), as it has specific outputs for panasonic players.

However, at some point I am going to build a htpc, and will no longer need to create BD9 discs. In addition, 25gb bluray discs are becoming cheaper. As such, I will create hd backups onto bluray discs, and create more reasonable sized mkv backups for use with my htpc.

Thanks everybody for your efforts in trying to solve this problem. I've learned quite a bit, and if I happen to find a solution, I will update all.

IanD · 24th September 2011, 06:14

TrueHD audio tracks usually contain an interleaved AC3 track for legacy playback. I'm wondering if this combo track causes issues when processed into other structures with certain players.

Have you tried extracting just the TrueHD track without the interleaved AC3 and using that instead?

IIRC DVD media used to host HD-DVD material was often referred to as "3x HD-DVD", presumably because the disc needed to be played back at 3x normal speed to achieve the required data throughput rates. Bluray is probably more onerous, so I wouldn't be surprised if DVD media are required to spin at more than 3x continuously when hosting this material and this could stress playback capability. I also understand that the innermost tracks of DVD media have the lowest data rate on the disc: when you rip a DVD, the best speed it usually starts off with is about 2x, so it wouldn't surprise me if DVD media does exhibit playback issues at the beginning of a title if it actually requires more than 3x spin speed. I vaguely recall suggestions about placing dummy files at the beginning of DVD media used for HD playback, to ensure that those slow innermost tracks would not get used for playing back the HD files, but I don't remember how big those dummy files needed to be.

Quality 25GB BD media is now around the same price per GB as quality DVD media, so there is really no point in using DVD for HD storage: Panasonic 25GB can be purchased for around $2/disc from Japan via ebay in cake boxes of 30.

m1ke486837 · 24th September 2011, 07:02

IanD, interesting point you bring up about dvd read speeds, and while I can't rule this out entirely, I find it odd that the same video stream (encoding settings) used with dtshd-ma plays fine, where those with truehd do not.

This brings me to your other point about using strictly the truehd part of the audio. I was under the impression that both dtshd and truehd needed a "core" (dts core and ac3 respectively) track to function properly. The "HD" aspect is extra information added to these core streams. I may be off base though.

If you are right about the interleaved ac3 track being the problem, and truehd can function without it, the next question is how do I incorporate it. tsMuxeR will not recognize a truehd stream without its ac3 core. Are there any programs that can achieve this?

Also, you are absolutely right regarding the price of bluray discs, which is why my days of BD5/9 creation are numbered

nixo · 26th September 2011, 14:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by m1ke486837

This brings me to your other point about using strictly the truehd part of the audio. I was under the impression that both dtshd and truehd needed a "core" (dts core and ac3 respectively) track to function properly. The "HD" aspect is extra information added to these core streams. I may be off base though.

This is the case for DTS-HD. TrueHD works perfectly well without the embedded ac3 track, but such a track is not legal for BD. Neither DTS-HD nor TrueHD is allowed for AVCHD without breaking spec.

--
Nikolaj

m1ke486837 · 27th September 2011, 23:18

Thanks nixo for the info. If I can find a program that can handle just the truehd stream (one without the interleaved ac3 portion) I will give it a shot. As you mentioned, dtshd and truehd are both out of spec for avchd, so I will not hold my breath.

bmcelvan · 8th January 2015, 19:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by m1ke486837

Thanks nixo for the info. If I can find a program that can handle just the truehd stream (one without the interleaved ac3 portion) I will give it a shot. As you mentioned, dtshd and truehd are both out of spec for avchd, so I will not hold my breath.

It has been a long ass time...did you ever get this resolved?

I can tell you how to convert TrueHD to both interweave and then back out of it again if you need to know how.

Oh and tsmuxer will only accept the interweave with the ac3 core. It will not see the TrueHD stand alone however mkvmerge will.

bmcelvan · 8th January 2015, 19:45

On a different note, does anyone know software that will give true specs of TrueHD, whether it is 16 or 24 bit. Or is bluray TrueHD ALWAYS 24 bit?

Looking to encode to FLAC and want to know if I need to use FLAC16 or FLAC24 to not lose any fidelity. Tsmuxer doesn't display this info, nor does mediainfo, dvdfab or eac3 properly as far as I can tell...only ever shows 16bit.

Emulgator · 8th January 2015, 20:47

mediainfo 0.7.71 does it. (Ha ! Not.) Just checked it with BD Life of Brian.
Audio #2 and #3 are shown as Dolby TrueHD/AC3 5.1 with 48kHz/16 bit for the lossless part.

P.S. Hm, you seem to be right, just checked "Matrix Revolutions"
and where MediaInfo claims 16bit, LAV Audio sees 24bit integer.

Moreover, LAV Video sees 2 video streams (angles)
VC-1 @ L3 1920x1080 + VC-1 @ L2 720x480,
(which is what I see when using a standalone)
Mediainfo reports...MPEG-2 Main@Main 720x480 + VC-1 @L2 720x480.

Curious about MPC-HC + LAV for "Life of Brian ?
Also 24bit integer for 3 tracks of Dolby TrueHD audio...

So playing and analysing it with MPC-HC and LAV seems to be your best bet.
After all, a player has to know what he has in hands ;-}

Worth reporting to zenitram.

bmcelvan · 8th January 2015, 21:20

Thanks for the reply. I had no idea what you were talking about...so I just downloaded the newest klite pack and now it makes perfect sense. I never knew you could have the LAV filters displayed on the statusbar and just open them up to see "active" data. That's awesome!!

Is zenitram the author of mediainfo?

Cheers!

Ben

Emulgator · 12th January 2015, 20:40

Quote:

Is zenitram the author of mediainfo?

Yes, he is.

Ghitulescu · 13th January 2015, 10:11

When I heard this error for the first time I thought it was an issue with tsmuxer and HD audio, as this was an issue back then.

Then I read a bit about it, and to my surprise, there were informations that decoding in the player would avoid this issue, while bitstreaming it (and letting the AVR do the decoding) would cause it. The reports that the distortions would be randomly distributed would point to the same direction.

However, lossless algorithms should be deterministic, like eg RAR or ZIP. So unless there is a design flaw in the math section of the DSP all of them should be identical.

Thus the question - did you also checked other software decoders and/or captured streams from HW ones? Just to pinpoint the issue...

pottzman · 26th September 2020, 10:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by bmcelvan

I can tell you how to convert TrueHD to both interweave and then back out of it again if you need to know how.

Yes Please I want to know if I have separate thd and ac3 audio files can I combine them into thd+ac3 that tsmuxer will accept?

24th September 2011, 06:14	#43 \| Link
IanD Registered User Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 190	TrueHD audio tracks usually contain an interleaved AC3 track for legacy playback. I'm wondering if this combo track causes issues when processed into other structures with certain players. Have you tried extracting just the TrueHD track without the interleaved AC3 and using that instead? IIRC DVD media used to host HD-DVD material was often referred to as "3x HD-DVD", presumably because the disc needed to be played back at 3x normal speed to achieve the required data throughput rates. Bluray is probably more onerous, so I wouldn't be surprised if DVD media are required to spin at more than 3x continuously when hosting this material and this could stress playback capability. I also understand that the innermost tracks of DVD media have the lowest data rate on the disc: when you rip a DVD, the best speed it usually starts off with is about 2x, so it wouldn't surprise me if DVD media does exhibit playback issues at the beginning of a title if it actually requires more than 3x spin speed. I vaguely recall suggestions about placing dummy files at the beginning of DVD media used for HD playback, to ensure that those slow innermost tracks would not get used for playing back the HD files, but I don't remember how big those dummy files needed to be. Quality 25GB BD media is now around the same price per GB as quality DVD media, so there is really no point in using DVD for HD storage: Panasonic 25GB can be purchased for around $2/disc from Japan via ebay in cake boxes of 30. Last edited by IanD; 24th September 2011 at 06:31.

8th January 2015, 20:47	#49 \| Link
Emulgator Big Bit Savings Now ! Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: close to the wall Posts: 1,546	mediainfo 0.7.71 does it. (Ha ! Not.) Just checked it with BD Life of Brian. Audio #2 and #3 are shown as Dolby TrueHD/AC3 5.1 with 48kHz/16 bit for the lossless part. P.S. Hm, you seem to be right, just checked "Matrix Revolutions" and where MediaInfo claims 16bit, LAV Audio sees 24bit integer. Moreover, LAV Video sees 2 video streams (angles) VC-1 @ L3 1920x1080 + VC-1 @ L2 720x480, (which is what I see when using a standalone) Mediainfo reports...MPEG-2 Main@Main 720x480 + VC-1 @L2 720x480. Curious about MPC-HC + LAV for "Life of Brian ? Also 24bit integer for 3 tracks of Dolby TrueHD audio... So playing and analysing it with MPC-HC and LAV seems to be your best bet. After all, a player has to know what he has in hands ;-} Worth reporting to zenitram. __________________ "To bypass shortcuts and find suffering...is called QUALity" (Die toten Augen von Friedrichshain) "Data reduction ? Yep, Sir. We're that issue working on. Synce invntoin uf lingöage..." Last edited by Emulgator; 8th January 2015 at 21:25.

8th January 2015, 21:20	#50 \| Link
bmcelvan Registered User Join Date: Mar 2014 Posts: 39	Thanks for the reply. I had no idea what you were talking about...so I just downloaded the newest klite pack and now it makes perfect sense. I never knew you could have the LAV filters displayed on the statusbar and just open them up to see "active" data. That's awesome!! Is zenitram the author of mediainfo? Cheers! Ben Last edited by bmcelvan; 8th January 2015 at 21:47.

13th January 2015, 10:11	#52 \| Link
Ghitulescu Registered User Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Germany Posts: 5,769	When I heard this error for the first time I thought it was an issue with tsmuxer and HD audio, as this was an issue back then. Then I read a bit about it, and to my surprise, there were informations that decoding in the player would avoid this issue, while bitstreaming it (and letting the AVR do the decoding) would cause it. The reports that the distortions would be randomly distributed would point to the same direction. However, lossless algorithms should be deterministic, like eg RAR or ZIP. So unless there is a design flaw in the math section of the DSP all of them should be identical. Thus the question - did you also checked other software decoders and/or captured streams from HW ones? Just to pinpoint the issue... __________________ Born in the USB (not USA)

22nd September 2011, 17:31	#41 \| Link
iSeries Registered User Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 625	Hi, Sorry I really should have mentioned, encodes with BDtoAVCHD always seem to come out a tiny bit too big for me as well with the preset sizes! Use a custom target size and reduce it a bit from the preset BD9 size, say 95%. I think it can determine accurately the bitrate needed to hit a particular target size, I just think the preset target sizes are too big. You could use the medium preset if you are just doing a test, no need to wait for slow or veryslow.

22nd September 2011, 22:44	#42 \| Link
m1ke486837 Registered User Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: San Diego Posts: 22	No worries iSeries...I can adjust in the future. I have basically decided that my panasonic player has issues playing avchd BD9 discs containing truehd audio. I may give multiavchd a try (thanks setarip_old), as it has specific outputs for panasonic players. However, at some point I am going to build a htpc, and will no longer need to create BD9 discs. In addition, 25gb bluray discs are becoming cheaper. As such, I will create hd backups onto bluray discs, and create more reasonable sized mkv backups for use with my htpc. Thanks everybody for your efforts in trying to solve this problem. I've learned quite a bit, and if I happen to find a solution, I will update all.

24th September 2011, 07:02	#44 \| Link
m1ke486837 Registered User Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: San Diego Posts: 22	IanD, interesting point you bring up about dvd read speeds, and while I can't rule this out entirely, I find it odd that the same video stream (encoding settings) used with dtshd-ma plays fine, where those with truehd do not. This brings me to your other point about using strictly the truehd part of the audio. I was under the impression that both dtshd and truehd needed a "core" (dts core and ac3 respectively) track to function properly. The "HD" aspect is extra information added to these core streams. I may be off base though. If you are right about the interleaved ac3 track being the problem, and truehd can function without it, the next question is how do I incorporate it. tsMuxeR will not recognize a truehd stream without its ac3 core. Are there any programs that can achieve this? Also, you are absolutely right regarding the price of bluray discs, which is why my days of BD5/9 creation are numbered

27th September 2011, 23:18	#46 \| Link
m1ke486837 Registered User Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: San Diego Posts: 22	Thanks nixo for the info. If I can find a program that can handle just the truehd stream (one without the interleaved ac3 portion) I will give it a shot. As you mentioned, dtshd and truehd are both out of spec for avchd, so I will not hold my breath.

8th January 2015, 19:45	#48 \| Link
bmcelvan Registered User Join Date: Mar 2014 Posts: 39	On a different note, does anyone know software that will give true specs of TrueHD, whether it is 16 or 24 bit. Or is bluray TrueHD ALWAYS 24 bit? Looking to encode to FLAC and want to know if I need to use FLAC16 or FLAC24 to not lose any fidelity. Tsmuxer doesn't display this info, nor does mediainfo, dvdfab or eac3 properly as far as I can tell...only ever shows 16bit.