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23rd August 2019, 12:15 | #201 | Link | ||
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I got used to it or I just favor (near) chroma 4:4:4 this much
You can sometimes see the banding/posterisation effect even on human skins (not just on walls/sky) but in the majority of cases I'm not bodered: it's not thaaat bad But, in the beginning I created a wrong 23p custom timings with madvr (not just the back porch values were changed), it took me for about a week to realize that something was off: it screwed up the gamma response of the TV badly, resulting in every kind weird things (heavy near black banding, darkened picture, more posterisation). That was baaad. Quote:
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23rd August 2019, 12:20 | #202 | Link |
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More test:
- White windows max nits (compared to rtings's B8 result): 100%: 145 10%: 700-750 (increasing quickly: maybe overheating the meter or display increases brighness?) - checked how ASND behaves on B8
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23rd August 2019, 12:53 | #203 | Link | |
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Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk
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23rd August 2019, 12:58 | #204 | Link | |||
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Maybe LG ignores the peak nits, maybe madVR should be sending MaxCLL every time the nits change dynamically? Quote:
While with SDR it would also affect the overall brightness. Quote:
Pretty much like the current "dynamic clipping". The other one (in the madVR optimizer by Soulnight), has an extra algo to only apply on % max pixels to avoid that. And for very bright scenes, with LG's DTM more highlight detail is resolved, but "dynamic clipping" might cause some clipping (haven't noticed any with 25, but it happens with 100). Last edited by quietvoid; 23rd August 2019 at 13:03. |
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23rd August 2019, 20:02 | #205 | Link |
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And you're using 12-bit on top of that Doesn't that make the banding even worse? It definitely does on my C7 in both normal and PC modes. If what Stacey Spears claims is right, then PC mode switches the TV into 8-bit only anyway.
I also recently tried PC mode, and while at first things appeared a bit sharper in video content, that could have very well been placebo. I sit about four feet from my 65", and I can't really tell the difference between 4:4:4 and 4:2:2 when watching something. Maybe I could in a side-by side comparison, but that's just not possible.
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23rd August 2019, 20:11 | #206 | Link |
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For most live video content that was originally 4:2:0 the difference between 4:4:4 and 4:2:2 is very minor even with madVR scaling the chroma.
This changes a lot when viewing content that was originally 4:4:4 or RGB, for that 4:2:2 on my C9 is pretty obvious and unacceptable.
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23rd August 2019, 20:27 | #207 | Link |
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Right, so the lack of proper 4:4:4 is not a huge deal, if all you do is watch commercial content. Still would be nice if the next generation of panels finally got past all the bandwidth and processing limitations, now that HDMI 2.1 is here. Come on LG! I wanna buy the C10!!!
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24th August 2019, 09:51 | #209 | Link | ||||||||
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That means processing is not 8bit, but maybe like with chroma 4:4:4, it's not 10bit either I don't know. Quote:
- SDR content: there's banding in PC mode using both 8bit and 10bit input (difference is minimal between the 2) - HDR10 content: there's heavy (!) banding in PC mode using both 8bit and 10bit input (difference is clearly visible between the 2) Quote:
Before that use a higher chroma algo in madvr (e.g. NGU Sharp low at least) not just Bicubic60 Quote:
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My reasoning for using PC mode with HDR10 is this: I see banding/posterisation - let's say - 10% of the times watching regular content, but I see the effect of increased natural sharpness 90% of the times And you can easily switch the label when you watch SDR or HDR10 content, if you like. But don't get me wrong, I don't want to poison your minds with this Quote:
From one of Ted's write up: "LG will convert any HDMI input RGB-Video colorspace signal to YCbCr 4:4:4 for applying initially most of the UI (user interface) adjustments. The UI user setting will be merged in an algorithm which will interpolate values between multiple user settings to manipulate the video signal. Looks like that there additional features of Expert Controls Menu (Dynamic Contrast, White Balance, CMS etc.) which will require more complex processing so for the TV to significantly reduce the bandwidth and the required processing power it will compress the horizontal chroma resolution in half; chroma subsampling from YCbCr 4:4:4 -> YCbCr 4:2:2; as this will reduce by 33.3% the video data bandwidth. I believe this is the reason why these OLED TV's will not display full chroma (YCbCr 4:4:4 or RGB-Video) with PC Icon enabled (of HDMI Input) from 24p/30p/50p input signal but only with 60p signal where all the Expert Control menu controls are disabled, so the video signal will bypass that 'Expert Controls Menu' processing step."
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24th August 2019, 10:47 | #210 | Link | ||
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and monitors anyway. BTW. RGB is very useful for UI interfaces because you can alpha blend and such there is a reason computer and computer games use it. doing colorcorrection and such is very easy even at 16 bit i would even say it is trivial simple quality scaling should cost more. stuff like motion interpolation and such are processing intensive not the general work of a TV it's not much different from a monitor. |
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24th August 2019, 12:55 | #211 | Link | |
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Passthrough vs pixelshader (LG's DTM is off): - pixelshader results just a bit brighter image with titles above 760 nits (e.g. JohnWick@01:04 , Alien@01:24 , Meg@00:07) - pixelshader results just a bit darker image with titles below 760 nits (e.g. Mockingjay@00:06 , Alita@00:10) Pixelshader is better with highlights - Meg: -- 00:03: sky is a bit whiter, blue leds on the girl's shoe is more vivid; waves/antennas getting more visible with highlight recovery very high -- 00:15: girl's hair clip - Godzilla: -- 00:23: lights above the stove -- 01:09: light is wither - Mad Max: -- 00:05: reflection om the edge of the car -- 00:52: screw on the wheel looks more shiny -- 02:15: highlights in the orange sky to the left (that's the biggest difference) Pixelshader is different (worse?): - JohnWick: -- 00:04: blue lights to the left -- 00:15: blue lights to the right Notes: - highlight recovery very high can help 4000's titles and above, it doesn't have any effect below (I've updated the settings picture) - I haven't checked LG's DTM yet
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24th August 2019, 16:01 | #212 | Link | |
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And if the TV does all the internal processing with only 8-bit precision in pc-mode that would also explain the banding. I think madVR does such things in 16 or even 32-bit. |
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24th August 2019, 17:00 | #213 | Link |
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It would make sense that the C8 would internally use YCbCr because most consumer equipment will be sending that signal to it. Those conversions are ok when they use proper dithering, but, given that we see banding on the C8, it is very possible that either its dithering sucks or is largely non-existent in those conversions. UGH.
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24th August 2019, 19:19 | #214 | Link |
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And in the end we'll never know for sure (even the mighty Ted, for whom I have the utmost respect ).
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24th August 2019, 20:53 | #215 | Link |
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I still don’t own an OLED display but I’ve honed my Kuro to perfection in all these years. Reading all the caveats and quirks of these displays is kind of scary to be honest.
Banding, bitdepths, pc mode, it all seems really messy. |
24th August 2019, 21:45 | #217 | Link |
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The benefits of OLED far outweigh any inherent issues, IMO. I can't watch anything on an LCD anymore
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24th August 2019, 22:33 | #218 | Link |
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Oh yeah... we bitch and moan about the littlest of things, but if ANYONE of us OLED owners had to go back to any other tech, I'm sure we all would rather have teeth pulled!
Maybe, MAYYYBEEE some of us would go back to Plasma, but even then, I doubt it. QB
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25th August 2019, 00:07 | #219 | Link |
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My only gripe is motion, really. There just isn't a good way to compensate for instant pixel response with sample-and-hold technology. This is where 24 fps really shows its age. The closer you sit, the more obvious the issue becomes. In the other thread I described how I now use madVR's smooth motion to play everything back at 60Hz. This actually works pretty well, but it adds a bit of blur to motion that would otherwise be stuttery on OLEDs (when played back without smooth motion and in its native frame rate). I do prefer it over the stutter, though. Playback at 120Hz should make this even better, when HDMI 2.1 is fully implemented and video cards are available.
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