Which display for MadVR only?

[chros]

This thread supposed to be a quest for the "perfect" display (model numbers) for MadVR only (SDR and HDR2SDR conversion using pixel shaders; we don't care about other inputs).

The following properties must be fulfilled:
- different refresh rates (23p, 24p, 50p, 59p, 60p)
- 4:4:4 chroma in *every* refresh rate
- good black level (=< 0.005 nits)
- high brightness (>= 150 nits)
- etc.

I'll add more properties to the list upon request.

Only note those models the fulfill all the above properties.
Now the hunt can begin!

[chros]

... reserved ...

[tp4tissue]

If we put 0.005 nit as black lvl in there, the ONLY display which can do that are OLEDs .

So this would effectively be, Best OLED thread ?

The only thing outside of OLED, would be the Eizo CG3145, Light modulated IPS, $30-45,000 street price. that has something round 0.001

In general, I would object to OLEDs being the ideal display, primarily for its extremely poor motion clarity, one big Smear.

For example, even cheapo VA-panels do a really good job of motion clarity, because they use cheapee 120hz pwm dimmed leds. WHICH inadvertently greatly improves motion clarity (reduce pixel trails), even though they only did it to cut cost.

Being BEST DISPLAY for Madvr, IMHO, we should consider motion clarity a critical factor, because Madvr plays Movies, which are Moving-Pictures.

The lightmodulated VA (possibly ips) panels are coming from Hisense and TCL very soon. These will do 0.001

Samsung is doing microled. (which), This is a confusing tech, because if you have all these leds which have Different lvl of wear through normal use, then color uniformity may change dramatically over length of ownership.

[VBB]

@chros, you should have this thread moved to the "Software players" section, since it is madVR related. Hardly anybody will see it here.

[Asmodian]

Originally Posted by tp4tissue

In general, I would object to OLEDs being the ideal display, primarily for its extremely poor motion clarity, one big Smear.

For example, even cheapo VA-panels do a really good job of motion clarity, because they use cheapee 120hz pwm dimmed leds. WHICH inadvertently greatly improves motion clarity (reduce pixel trails), even though they only did it to cut cost.

Current OLEDs have BFI, which is way better than random PWM dimming interacting with the image, that causes apparent ghosting along with the clarity improvement. I would object to anything with a black level over ~0.01 being the ideal madVR display.

Edit: Also most 24fps video has lots of motion blur in the video so motion clarity is not that important. It is key for sports or video games but not films, in my experience.

[huhn]

the BFI on OLED is currently the worst end of BFI implantation.
the reason for that are not OLEDs it's how it is archived.
yeah there are cheapo LCD that are worse obviously but you know...

currently the LG OLED panel allows for 120 frames as an input and there is no backlight as everyone should know so the best an OLED can do thanks to it's panel limitation is 60 images and 60 black images which gives it a 50 % BFI to image which is "not good" the higher the black image part of the presentation cycle the sharper the motion an VG248 has about 10 % image and 90% black image which is way sharper still not CRT yet.

the next issue with the OLED BFI is that it can't do 24 hz BFI AFAIK because it only can do it for 60 HZ and 50 HZ and 120 hz is not an multiplier of 48 frames. 96 frames BFI would be worst then 50 hz in term of flicker and 144 hz isn't possible >yet< so...

just as a reminder these are panel limitation not OLED limitations.
an OLED can do much better then this even through the response times are a lie (LCD lie even more gtg response times any one...) they are in a totally different league then LCD.
the thing is just for backlight strobbing you don't need the best response times because it can normally response in the "dark" if isn't super slow obviously.

BFI /backlight strobing (i will just call it BFI in this part)and the ghosting:
if "BFI" with a matching refreshrate doesn't have to create ghosting
ghosting will be create in all other cases and it is done intentionally even in analogue cinemas.
the BFI cinema spec was out of my memory 72 hz or 96 hz (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flicker_(screen)) to lower flicker which will produce ghosting.
just as a reminder plasma had to do this too.
so the ghosting is an expected result if not a wanted result.

backlight strobing:
please don't put random PWM dimming in the same performance region as intentional backlight strobing which needs very very precise timing and is currently the best we can get in term of motion clearness but they are pretty much mutually exclusive to HDR.

using backlight strobbing/bfi will cost brightness there is no way around this and the more brightness that's scarified by using more black then image the better the clearness.

@chros you are asking for way to much in general.
what about other major issues like:

ABL
active back lights (nothing i personally hate more!!!)

@Asmodian
with ~0.01 you pretty much removed all LCDs but you leave some really bad projectors in it.

at 100 nits that's 10000 CR more then an panasonic plasma.
https://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/panasonic/st60

[Asmodian]

I did say ideal, and we need enough brightness to easily disqualify those projectors. Maybe 0.01 nits is asking too much but I know 0.03 nits is pretty bright in a dark room.

Hopefully the 2019 and later OLEDs will have better BFI. I understand the 2019 LG OLEDs will use a 240 Hz driven BFI implementation.

Hiding the pixel transition and the better timing of true BFI is obviously sharper but I do notice the ghosting. I notice it most when watching something move fast across the background or during fast pans. Cinema does not have BFI because they wanted it, it has BFI because you need to move the film without blurring the image, at 72 Hz so it doesn't visibly flicker. I am not convinced BFI is that important for 24 fps content, anything at 24 Hz with no motion blur is going to be a bit choppy.

BFI is nice, but is it worth having a 0.05 cd/m² black level all the time? Hopefully we will not need to choose.

[huhn]

you can easily "disqualify" low end projectors by not suing the black point by just using CR is this the perfect solution hell no but it'S a little bit more specific.
current VA panel range from static Cr of ~4000-6000 for the better ones.

is 0.03 pretty bright in a dark room?
what is seen as black by the human eye just depends on the brightness of other parts on the screen the human eye has only a CR of about ~1000.

so a white box with 100 nits next to a box with 0.05 will turn the the 0.05 into total darkness.

nature has some extreme examples for this with the good old sun the dark spots on it are still super bright but simply looks like total darkness compared to the rest.

and about BFI it is still done in cinemas and adding blur on top of blur doesn't sound right to me. it's not like BFI will remove blur from a source it simply doesn't add more.
backlight strobbing doesn't have to ruin CR of a display it does this from time to time on gaming displays if i'm remembering correctly my VG248 has a CR of ~250 with it enabled but CR is clearly not the focus for gaming screens with 120 or more HZ.

who knows what's important for what user.
what's totally clear you can't have it all at the moment and you may never will.

[Asmodian]

0.03 nits is pretty bright, I know from experience.

Full black next to full white is not that common, but it is common to have a dark scene where 0.03 black obviously glows. Black bars aren't great either. CR is an important metric but if black is 0.1 nits I do not care how bright it gets, it is a bad display, at least for my viewing conditions.

[tp4tissue]

Originally Posted by Asmodian

0.03 nits is pretty bright, I know from experience.

Full black next to full white is not that common, but it is common to have a dark scene where 0.03 black obviously glows. Black bars aren't great either. CR is an important metric but if black is 0.1 nits I do not care how bright it gets, it is a bad display, at least for my viewing conditions.

For Projector in a dark room, 0.1 is glowing.

For any reasonably lit room, 0.1 is nothing.


0.05 is already quite visible in a dim room, but it doesn't remove much from the scene.


At the moment, we're making a choice between Best still image/ slow scene on OLED, Vs Best motion-image overall on VA-panels.

the human eye is capable anywhere between 1000 to 10000:1 contrast ratio, depending on who you talk to..

Va panels already have 5000:1, that's more than adequate.

For movies, Motion clarity is just slightly more important than Still image performance.


But, this is a moot argument, Samsung's new Microled blows OLED out of the water. No more worrying about burn-ins and rapid degrading blue-pixels

Then there's TCL and Hisense.

[Asmodian]

I know what I like in a display and something with a 0.05 nits black is not a good display for me. Also my blue pixels have been great so far, I check them about every three months and I only see a very slow change. At 100 nits peak white I am not pushing them too hard.

Microled isn't really out yet, and they might have stability problems too. Other chemistries for creating very bright inorganic LEDs can degrade. But I am definitely interested!

I really don't like VA panels, with their bright blacks and off-angle color issues.

[Blue_MiSfit]

Stutter is a huge thing for me. I got an 2016 LG OLED and it's great for everything except fast panning on 24p. The stutter is incredibly bad, and there's nothing you can do except turn motion interpolation on (which is terrible).

I miss that about my plasma...

[tp4tissue]

Originally Posted by Blue_MiSfit

Stutter is a huge thing for me. I got an 2016 LG OLED and it's great for everything except fast panning on 24p. The stutter is incredibly bad, and there's nothing you can do except turn motion interpolation on (which is terrible).

I miss that about my plasma...

What we're all really waiting for is Light modulated IPS.

The difficulty here is that you'd need backlight capable of 2000nits, Blink that on the LCD transition trail, which eats 1000 nits.

I believe fastest IPS can do 144hz maybe even 165hz

This produces the ideal outcome motion-fans are after, Motion clarity ontop of perfect blacks.

[huhn]

Originally Posted by Blue_MiSfit

Stutter is a huge thing for me. I got an 2016 LG OLED and it's great for everything except fast panning on 24p. The stutter is incredibly bad, and there's nothing you can do except turn motion interpolation on (which is terrible).

I miss that about my plasma...

LG had a bug on the first flat UHD OLED where 23p didn't work properly if that by any chance is this screen you may fix the issue.

the stutter should be the same on both the OLED and the plasma both are in theory capable of presenting 23p correctly. i would even go this far and say that the OLED should be more "smooth" because the motion is far more blurry compared to the plasma.

on the other hand if you have a HTPC PC is pretty easy to test your screen for stutter or judder issues with madVR.

[Blue_MiSfit]

I mean stutter (not judder). I have several different LG OLEDs (B6, C7, C8) at work and at home and they're all the same.

I'm not talking about judder from doing 2:2:2:4 to stuff 24p in 60p. That's not an issue, I'm sure the panel is getting clean 24p from the source, and that it's displaying that correctly. I've even output 2160p23.98 and 2160p24 ProRes XQ masters from DaVinci Resolve using a Blackmagic card to the display to make sure there's nothing goofy going on.

From what I understand, stutter happens when a TV has very fast response (e.g. OLED) so frames are drawn instantly and held on-screen for the full duration.

https://www.rtings.com/tv/tests/motion/stutter

I'm not really an expert on this, but my eyes hurt when there's a 24p panning shot on every OLED I've ever seen, no matter how it's configured. This was NEVER an issue with my plasma. All told, I think the benefits of the OLED are worth it, though I haven't personally spent any time with current high end LCDs. The downsides of local dimming really spoil my experience with mid-range stuff like the Sony X930 and Vizio M series.

[huhn]

i'm not a huge fan of this test for a very simple reason. BFI/backlight strobing is supposed to have a way bigger impact that test simply takes frame - response time ignoring persistence reset completely.

while plasma doesn't had the same response times but still very good response times it is a refresh display type.

so the response time difference between plasma and oled shouldn't be really big because real world response times of OLED is between 0.2 over 1 ms.

[tp4tissue]

Originally Posted by Blue_MiSfit

I'm not really an expert on this, but my eyes hurt when there's a 24p panning shot on every OLED I've ever seen, no matter how it's configured. This was NEVER an issue with my plasma.

Plasma has a very subtle pixel decay drag similar to crt. maybe that smoothed it out for you.

[chros]

Originally Posted by Blue_MiSfit

I mean stutter (not judder). I have several different LG OLEDs (B6, C7, C8) at work and at home and they're all the same.
...
I'm sure the panel is getting clean 24p from the source, and that it's displaying that correctly.

Does it happen with RealCinama ON and SmoothMotion Off in 23p/24p? (Note that I don't have an oled.)

[VBB]

He's talking about "stutter" in fast motion and panning, which all OLEDs are prone to, unfortunately. This is not caused by incorrect settings, but rather by the way the technology works. It brings out the inherent flaws in 24 fps media. Some don't notice it as much, or at all, even, but those who do (like me) are forced to use the de-judder setting. And this is where Sony's processing is better than LG's, but supposedly the gap is closing with the 2019 models. After using it for a long time now, I've gotten used to having a little bit of soap opera effect.

[Asmodian]

I do notice the stutter of fast 24 fps pans on OLED but the motion interpolation is terrible on my C7. I recently turned it on to see how it impacted stutter and banding but during non-global motion or unstable lighting I notice all sorts of nasty artifacts. During clean pans it is nice but the mess during a scene with flickering light, like a fire, makes it completely unusable for me. I have not seen Sony's processing but can it really avoid these issues?