Welcome to Doom9's Forum, THE in-place to be for everyone interested in DVD conversion.

Before you start posting please read the forum rules. By posting to this forum you agree to abide by the rules.

 

Go Back   Doom9's Forum > Hardware & Software > Software players

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 5th February 2016, 21:23   #35841  |  Link
n3w813
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 80
Hi Madshi,
Were there any changes to madtpg in 0.90.4? I no longer see the OSD when I remotely connect Calman to MadTPG.

Thanks
n3w813 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th February 2016, 21:37   #35842  |  Link
Warner306
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 1,127
Quote:
Originally Posted by huhn View Post
SBS is about displaying both frames side by side so yes that's how it works.
I think the output is the same as frame-packed. The display splits the full SbS frames and shows them sequentially.
Warner306 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th February 2016, 21:44   #35843  |  Link
FDisk80
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Israel
Posts: 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by Warner306 View Post
I think the output is the same as frame-packed. The display splits the full SbS frames and shows them sequentially.
What he said.
FDisk80 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th February 2016, 22:03   #35844  |  Link
Warner306
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 1,127
Quote:
Originally Posted by Light001 View Post
@Warner, However id appreciate input from the community!

Oh cool man! i was able to get Nnedi128 going after looking through your guide, i also switched to Dxva Copyback. Is there an acceptable amount of dropped frames? i have around 12 i think. i typically get them when i click for fullscreen and back to windowed. It uses 80%! of my Gtx 980!, And now, i was setting up the Scaling algorithms, and as of right now i have
Chroma Up - NNEDI3 - 128 neurons
Image Down - SSIM
Image Doubling - And this is what i was going to ask you about to make sure it sounded right, I have all the box's Checked off, and they are set to (Always If Upscaling is needed) and all of them are NNEDI3 128, and that brings up Gpu Usage to 95%. In Fullscreen i get 52Ms rendering, and in windowed i get 15ms. Hmm and it seems when in use i have alot of dropped frames. They do not constantly rise up, but between moving around in windows and going back to the show they have risen.
Image Upscaling is Jinc.
Im trying to figure out what the heck deinterlacing is and what option i should use, i have smooth motion on always, and 16 buffer, and how many video frames shall be presented in advance.
Error Diffusion - option 1
Um i turned on "use Separate device for presentation" What should i look for when turning this on and off ? is it worth anything.
All deinterlacing is turned off in "Unchecked in the MADVR" And in LAV i have everything Auto on top left, Output Formats are all defualt, and RGB is set to PC and Dithering mode is Random Atm (SHould i switch this?)
Dxva2 Copy-Back for Hardware Accel with just Hevc and UHD unchecked,
And software Deinterlacing is not checked off.

Ok soooo with those, things, any reccomendations? some days i like to just listen to videos in the background while playing video games, so i will probably just switch it to VMR7 or some nonsense in the output,when i do that because 80% Gpu usage will definatly cause issues for my gaming.

**Update
So i changed things down to 64 neurons, and i gained about 20ms rendering time bringing it to 30 roughly, and alot more stable frames, like no frame drops during regular playback so far, and thats with a Star trek TNG episode being brought up in scaling. and gpu usage is @ 70%. and cpu seems low the entire time. So i was advised also that Reclock will not make playback smoother and eliminate motion judder, and to use internal audio renderer. So thats what i am doing, aswell i still am searching for an answer to Motion judder because my BENQXl2420T, does not seem to naturally support any refresh rate (Hz) Below 60. And id rather not make a custom resolution unless advised with info, because it says it will void warranty. So i still get motion judder, and seems to be a little hmm i dunno what the term is for this , but say on a darker image its like you see a patchy pixelated blob thats not as dark as the image, a little of this not much, just a little haha and only in some scene if im looking for it.
- What are your scaling factors? NNEDI3 is only useful if the image is upscaled -- at least 720p -> 1080p or 540p -> 1080p. Anything less does not require image doubling. Remember, you are doubling the image resolution. You don't want to overscale anything beyond your display's native resolution. You are trying to match the source resolution to the resolution of your monitor.

- Dropped frames are only an issue during playback. Bringing up menus and navigation can cause frame drops, but they aren't important. If the frame counter is not increasing during playback, your settings are fine.

- Deinterlacing is necessary for interlaced sources. Most sources these days are not interlaced. Exceptions are DVDs and live TV broadcast at 1080i. Only these sources would be deinterlaced. Set madVR to auto and it should take care of this for you. It will only deinterlace sources that need deinterlacing.

- LAV Video does not control dithering or RGB modes -- madVR takes care of this. The only setting to be concerned with in LAV Video is hardware acceleration.

- General settings such as "use a separate device for presentation" are only necessary if you are having playback issues. Using fullscreen exclusive mode is the safest route. You shouldn't notice any difference during playback.

- If your display does not support any resolution below 60 Hz, I would set it to the highest resolution and use smooth motion instead. Smooth motion can improve the fluidity of playback but is usually a matter of taste. You may prefer turning it off and living with 3:2 pulldown instead. I have one display that doesn't support 1080p24 and 3:2 pulldown isn't that bad.
Warner306 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th February 2016, 22:14   #35845  |  Link
Warner306
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 1,127
Quote:
Originally Posted by FDisk80 View Post
What he said.
I've only researched this topic. I don't have any 3D content, but I've read that full SbS on a 1080p display is possible.
Warner306 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th February 2016, 22:23   #35846  |  Link
XTrojan
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by Warner306 View Post
I've only researched this topic. I don't have any 3D content, but I've read that full SbS on a 1080p display is possible.
It's kinda not, Frame-Packed is what you're looking for.

Full-SBS is rendering 2D at left and MVC at right, the TV will then combine these two into a 3D image, but lose half the vertical resolution by doing so.

I'm not sure how MadVR handles Full-SBS but by the look of it, you need a UHD TV as it will put two 1080p video streams together, in order to do this you need a 2160p TV or downscaling is needed. I'm as well not sure if MadVR does any upscaling, it shouldn't as it's two separate video streams (2160p total). The PC can't detect the 3D, it simply detects it as 2D or well two 2D videos, the TV will then do "post-processing 3D merging". By this logic MadVR/The PC thinks the video is 4k, it's the TV who post-processes (merging) = half vertical res lost.

The PC does however detect frame-packed, frame-packed seems to be a "link" with the PC and TV while SBS is TV "post-processing" but requiring higher specs (4k 3D TV).

SBS is very similar to passive 3D, the reason Active 3D still exists today is because it saves the full res while passive 3D is half vertical res. Even though active 3D has a higher chance of causing eye fatigue(shutter glasses blinking 120times a second with black frames), major crosstalk issues, not to mention it being expensive and more annoying to set up.

Last edited by XTrojan; 5th February 2016 at 22:36.
XTrojan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th February 2016, 23:38   #35847  |  Link
huhn
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 7,903
Quote:
Originally Posted by Warner306 View Post
I think the output is the same as frame-packed. The display splits the full SbS frames and shows them sequentially.
not at all.

frame packing 3D is full resolution by sending 2 picture with full 1080p resolution.

if it is sending 48 frames or a 3840x1080p image doesn't matter. and i don't know.
SBS is sending a 2d imaging which is the resolution of your screen.
on a 1080p screen it is 1080p on a UHD screen it is 2160p and both picture on this frame.

my TV can't do SBS at UHD resolution. i is only using 3d at 1080p and all other option are grey out. so frame packing is the only way to get full resolution for me.
huhn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th February 2016, 00:27   #35848  |  Link
Light001
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by Warner306 View Post
- What are your scaling factors? NNEDI3 is only useful if the image is upscaled -- at least 720p -> 1080p or 540p -> 1080p. Anything less does not require image doubling. Remember, you are doubling the image resolution. You don't want to overscale anything beyond your display's native resolution. You are trying to match the source resolution to the resolution of your monitor.

- Dropped frames are only an issue during playback. Bringing up menus and navigation can cause frame drops, but they aren't important. If the frame counter is not increasing during playback, your settings are fine.

- Deinterlacing is necessary for interlaced sources. Most sources these days are not interlaced. Exceptions are DVDs and live TV broadcast at 1080i. Only these sources would be deinterlaced. Set madVR to auto and it should take care of this for you. It will only deinterlace sources that need deinterlacing.

- LAV Video does not control dithering or RGB modes -- madVR takes care of this. The only setting to be concerned with in LAV Video is hardware acceleration.

- General settings such as "use a separate device for presentation" are only necessary if you are having playback issues. Using fullscreen exclusive mode is the safest route. You shouldn't notice any difference during playback.

- If your display does not support any resolution below 60 Hz, I would set it to the highest resolution and use smooth motion instead. Smooth motion can improve the fluidity of playback but is usually a matter of taste. You may prefer turning it off and living with 3:2 pulldown instead. I have one display that doesn't support 1080p24 and 3:2 pulldown isn't that bad.
Well my star trek movie files are 720 width and 496 height. and i do have others like this. ok so leave deinterlace on auto, should i touch and nvidia control panel settings? noise reduction and the other 1, . and basically try smooth motion off and on and see which i like more?
Light001 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th February 2016, 01:12   #35849  |  Link
Warner306
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 1,127
Quote:
Originally Posted by Light001 View Post
Well my star trek movie files are 720 width and 496 height. and i do have others like this. ok so leave deinterlace on auto, should i touch and nvidia control panel settings? noise reduction and the other 1, . and basically try smooth motion off and on and see which i like more?
Set everything in the control to "Application" or "Media Player" to avoid altering the image in unwanted ways. madVR should handle these things.
Warner306 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th February 2016, 02:14   #35850  |  Link
ryrynz
Registered User
 
ryrynz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 3,646
Quote:
Originally Posted by Light001 View Post
Chroma Up - NNEDI3 - 128 neurons
Jesus... Why?

Last edited by ryrynz; 6th February 2016 at 02:16.
ryrynz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th February 2016, 03:49   #35851  |  Link
Light001
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 11
I dunno

Quote:
Originally Posted by ryrynz View Post
Jesus... Why?
Well is that bad?? Like thats what i am trying to figure out, i want great image quality and nothing overkill, and as i said if you go back to one of my previous messages, those are the settings im using to upscale from like 720 and 4** something. Should i try something else?
Light001 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th February 2016, 04:06   #35852  |  Link
ryrynz
Registered User
 
ryrynz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 3,646
Quote:
Originally Posted by Light001 View Post
Well is that bad?? Like thats what i am trying to figure out, i want great image quality and nothing overkill, and as i said if you go back to one of my previous messages, those are the settings im using to upscale from like 720 and 4** something. Should i try something else?
It's eating a lot of GPU resources for very little gain. I doubt anyone could notice the difference between NNEDI3 at 16 or 32 neurons vs 256 on chroma. Find a scene that has a lot of red elements in it like blood or clothing or text etc and compare jinc ar, reconstruction soft/sharp and NNEDI3 32/64.
ryrynz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th February 2016, 04:39   #35853  |  Link
QBhd
QB the Slayer
 
QBhd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Toronto
Posts: 697
Quote:
Originally Posted by ryrynz View Post
Jesus... Why?
Indeed... I push my GPU to it's limits and Chroma is a pretty low on the totem poll.

QB
__________________
QBhd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th February 2016, 05:29   #35854  |  Link
RyuzakiL
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 36
Upgrade to AMD Crimson Edition 16.1.1 Hotfix (Hotfix)?

Running on Windows 8.1 x64 + FX8320 @ 4.3ghz + 2X HD7850 with Radeon Catalyst 15.11.1

I know for a fact that MadVR runs properly on Windows 8.1 only, coz on Windows 7 & 10 both of these idiots enable Crossfire Mode when running MadVR.

So the question is to those who are using the latest AMD Crimson, is it worth it? performance and stability wise? and does losing important video settings using Crimson affects MadVR's picture quality?
RyuzakiL is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th February 2016, 05:33   #35855  |  Link
Light001
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 11
hmm

Quote:
Originally Posted by ryrynz View Post
It's eating a lot of GPU resources for very little gain. I doubt anyone could notice the difference between NNEDI3 at 16 or 32 neurons vs 256 on chroma. Find a scene that has a lot of red elements in it like blood or clothing or text etc and compare jinc ar, reconstruction soft/sharp and NNEDI3 32/64.
kk changed chroma to jinc, any reccomendations for image doubling? which boxes should be checked off, always when needed? and which setting? context to my Star Trek TNG Movie files
Light001 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th February 2016, 06:47   #35856  |  Link
QBhd
QB the Slayer
 
QBhd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Toronto
Posts: 697
Quote:
Originally Posted by RyuzakiL View Post
Running on Windows 8.1 x64 + FX8320 @ 4.3ghz + 2X HD7850 with Radeon Catalyst 15.11.1

I know for a fact that MadVR runs properly on Windows 8.1 only, coz on Windows 7 & 10 both of these idiots enable Crossfire Mode when running MadVR.

So the question is to those who are using the latest AMD Crimson, is it worth it? performance and stability wise? and does losing important video settings using Crimson affects MadVR's picture quality?
I like the Crimson suite since it comes with an awesome custom resolution section (in "Additional Settings") which you can fine tune timings to within +/-0.0001 MHz or better.

QB
__________________
QBhd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th February 2016, 06:56   #35857  |  Link
Asmodian
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: San Jose, California
Posts: 4,406
Quote:
Originally Posted by Light001 View Post
kk changed chroma to jinc, any reccomendations for image doubling? which boxes should be checked off, always when needed? and which setting? context to my Star Trek TNG Movie files
The problem with "optimal settings" is that it is very dependent on user preference and your display.

Some users like super-xbr but NNEDI3 with as many neurons as possible often considered optimal. Almost everyone agrees that luma is much more important than chroma, especially for live action. Chroma is more beneficial for computer graphics or animation but luma is still more important.

My opinion:
For TNG my 480p30 settings are:
chroma upscaling: Reconstruction Soft
image upscaling: Jinc AR
luma doubling at 1.5x or bigger with NNEDI3 256
chroma doubling at 1.5x with NNEDI3 32.
luma quadruple at 3x or bigger with NNEDI3 32
chroma quadruple at 3x or bigger with NNEDI3 16

I am on a 1440p display, not 4K, so I am downscaling with Bicubic 150 AR.

I tune the upscaling refinement options to my preference for each show. I haven't found settings for them that I like for everything but usually once tuned they are fine with other content, if I am feeling lazy. The key is to not overuse them.

For dithering, I like ED1 on this display but I recommend ordered dithering unless you can pick your own preference. Disable "change dither for every frame" to reduce subjective noise unless you are using a very large or low resolution display.

I would drop chroma quadrupling, then luma quadrupling, then chroma doubling, then turn down luma doubling, as performance required. Switching to super-xbr 75 is also an option.

Others probably use other settings which also look quite good.
__________________
madVR options explained
Asmodian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th February 2016, 07:09   #35858  |  Link
ryrynz
Registered User
 
ryrynz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 3,646
Quote:
Originally Posted by Light001 View Post
kk changed chroma to jinc, any reccomendations for image doubling? which boxes should be checked off, always when needed? and which setting? context to my Star Trek TNG Movie files
Asmodian's settings are rather pure in the sense that he has not other image enhancements enabled and for some content & displays this can work well.

Some Line Thinning can work wonders on lower resolution content and many users like edge sharpening and superRes enhancements too.

Compare these to your own TV's sharpness settings, I personally set TV sharpness to 0 and let the PC perform higher quality sharpening.

NNEDI3 is a great upscaler but the visual benefits past 64 neurons are very small, if you've got extra juice to spare after everything else is decided then by all means crank it up for luma upscaling.
ryrynz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th February 2016, 07:54   #35859  |  Link
Asmodian
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: San Jose, California
Posts: 4,406
Quote:
Originally Posted by ryrynz View Post
Asmodian's settings are rather pure in the sense that he has not other image enhancements enabled and for some content & displays this can work well.

Some Line Thinning can work wonders on lower resolution content and many users like edge sharpening and superRes enhancements too.

Compare these to your own TV's sharpness settings, I personally set TV sharpness to 0 and let the PC perform higher quality sharpening.

NNEDI3 is a great upscaler but the visual benefits past 64 neurons are very small, if you've got extra juice to spare after everything else is decided then by all means crank it up for luma upscaling.
I actually do have several image enhancements enabled, I simply refused to recommend any because what I end up picking is often quite different when I am tuning for different content or on different displays. I think I actually like all of them used at different strengths and in different combinations with different content. Especially true with various SD source to HD+.

I often like the look of SuperRes but it also brings back aliasing that was in the source and which NNEDI3 got rid of.

It is true that going above 64 neurons is very expensive, but chroma doubling and quadrupling is also of little benefit compared to the performance cost. With live film I like going to 256 neuron luma doubling before doubling/quadrupling anything else. It gives it a more "natural" look in some way.
__________________
madVR options explained
Asmodian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th February 2016, 13:13   #35860  |  Link
Stereodude
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Region 0
Posts: 1,436
Quote:
Originally Posted by huhn View Post
frame packing 3D is full resolution by sending 2 picture with full 1080p resolution.

if it is sending 48 frames or a 3840x1080p image doesn't matter. and i don't know.
It's actually 1920 x 2205. The two 1080p images for each eye are stacked vertically with a 45 pixel gap between them. I'm not sure why it can't be done with a custom resolution and some smarts by the renderer.

Last edited by Stereodude; 6th February 2016 at 17:01. Reason: fix spelling error
Stereodude is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
direct compute, dithering, error diffusion, madvr, ngu, nnedi3, quality, renderer, scaling, uhd upscaling, upsampling

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 03:18.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.