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Old 23rd March 2018, 16:14   #49761  |  Link
oldpainlesskodi
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Originally Posted by Warner306 View Post
I would go with the Nvidia HDR. Otherwise, you will be switching the OS switch every time you watch an HDR video.
That's what I always thought....

The Martian (2015) 4k HDR. The scene from 00:10.10 looks extremely different when played with Madvr passthrough with metadata, vs madvr passthrough without metadata and nvcp set to use default color settings and the OS HDR toggle on.

Does any else have this film and test as above?

K

Win10 (latest fast ring) and GTX 1080ti (latest driver)

Last edited by oldpainlesskodi; 23rd March 2018 at 16:17.
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Old 23rd March 2018, 16:49   #49762  |  Link
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when you say different what are we talking about here exactly?, darker, lighter, washed out, over saturated, grainy, banding?
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Old 23rd March 2018, 16:58   #49763  |  Link
oldpainlesskodi
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when you say different what are we talking about here exactly?, darker, lighter, washed out, over saturated, grainy, banding?
Colour reproduction (more vibrant with correct colour tones) sharpness, clarity/image depth and the absence of aliasing = using nvcp default colour with OS HDR toggle as per my previous post.

In fact, I've just tried about 30 or so HDR movies and the differences I'm seeing have me scratching my head

K

Last edited by oldpainlesskodi; 23rd March 2018 at 17:08.
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Old 23rd March 2018, 17:15   #49764  |  Link
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I'm running on an AMD 460 so cant test i'm afraid but when I play HDR movies using the windows FILMS a& TV app with the windows HDR toggle on they look very similar to the output of MADVR suggesting an NVIDA HDR issue to me.

Not sure why you 'd want to run HDR that way though, but I know there have been some issues getting HDR to work properly with some NVIDIA driver versions, AMD has been working fine with HDR for a long while now but did have some issues with earlier RX 4XXX drivers if memory serves.

AMD is pretty much play and go at the minute for HDR, no issues at all. I'd like to move to the more powerful NVIDIA cards myself but there are just too many issues, just dont think NVIDIA put the time in to HTPC playback AMD does.
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Old 23rd March 2018, 17:34   #49765  |  Link
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HDR has been working well for me, with Nvidia, since madVR implemented the Nvidia API. I created a 3DLUT with DisplayCal and calibrated and profiled with Calman, it was a bit shocking how bad the gamut coverage is in HDR mode.
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Old 23rd March 2018, 18:03   #49766  |  Link
Warner306
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Originally Posted by oldpainlesskodi View Post
That's what I always thought....

The Martian (2015) 4k HDR. The scene from 00:10.10 looks extremely different when played with Madvr passthrough with metadata, vs madvr passthrough without metadata and nvcp set to use default color settings and the OS HDR toggle on.

Does any else have this film and test as above?

K

Win10 (latest fast ring) and GTX 1080ti (latest driver)
It is not clear what you are comparing here...

With OS HDR on and madVR set to passthrough, the Windows method should be used. If select "send metadata," is the Nvidia API activated? Or is this another Windows method: full passthrough vs. partial passthrough? Doesn't the madVR OSD indicate this?

It would have to be determined what each setting is doing. I think the OS HDR switch has to be off for the Nvidia API to work. Most people are using the Nvidia API and checking send metadata, so this hasn't been brought up as an issue.

It has been stated that the Windows OS HDR is capable of producing a different image, but not how it does this.

Last edited by Warner306; 23rd March 2018 at 18:30.
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Old 23rd March 2018, 18:08   #49767  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Asmodian View Post
HDR has been working well for me, with Nvidia, since madVR implemented the Nvidia API. I created a 3DLUT with DisplayCal and calibrated and profiled with Calman, it was a bit shocking how bad the gamut coverage is in HDR mode.
Gamut coverage is far less important for color reproduction that saturation tracking and colour volume, so you want to check these too (Calman has two good layouts to measure colour volume and a few good layouts to measure linearity).

A display with "only" 90% gamut coverage can produce a more accurate picture than a display with 100% gamut coverage if the former has a better linearity and a higher color volume.
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Old 23rd March 2018, 19:21   #49768  |  Link
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Originally Posted by oldpainlesskodi View Post
That's what I always thought....

The Martian (2015) 4k HDR. The scene from 00:10.10 looks extremely different when played with Madvr passthrough with metadata, vs madvr passthrough without metadata and nvcp set to use default color settings and the OS HDR toggle on.

Does any else have this film and test as above?

K

Win10 (latest fast ring) and GTX 1080ti (latest driver)
I just tried this and I can't really see a difference between NV HDR and OS HDR, so it can't be extremely different.
I also tried some HDR clipping test pattern and they also looked identical between NV and OS HDR.

One thing I really like about OS HDR though is that the windows interface isn't blindingly bright.

Also on latest win10, latest nvidia drivers.
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Old 23rd March 2018, 20:43   #49769  |  Link
oldpainlesskodi
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I just tried this and I can't really see a difference between NV HDR and OS HDR, so it can't be extremely different.
I also tried some HDR clipping test pattern and they also looked identical between NV and OS HDR.

One thing I really like about OS HDR though is that the windows interface isn't blindingly bright.

Also on latest win10, latest nvidia drivers.
Odd, must be my set up then if you tried the Martian movie - With NV i see oversatuarted colours, whilst not showing all the gradients, and some ringing artifacts on the small stones on the martian land as it zooms in, but with the OS HDR I get done of those issues, and the image is far clearer/vibrant.

K

Last edited by oldpainlesskodi; 23rd March 2018 at 20:45.
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Old 23rd March 2018, 21:46   #49770  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Manni View Post
Gamut coverage is far less important for color reproduction that saturation tracking and colour volume, so you want to check these too (Calman has two good layouts to measure colour volume and a few good layouts to measure linearity).

A display with "only" 90% gamut coverage can produce a more accurate picture than a display with 100% gamut coverage if the former has a better linearity and a higher color volume.
By gamut I meant color volume. The 2D gamut, or the primaries measured at 100% brightness, is not really the gamut as they are defined in the specs, even though we often look at them like that. Linearity is less important when using a 3DLUT.

It was the Calman reports that were depressing, the primaries are quite good so at a quick glance the coverage looks great but as soon as you measure the full 3D space it doesn't look so good. It is fine for viewing, HDR content looks great, but it is a strong reminder that the HDR specs are well outside what current consumer displays can do.
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Old 23rd March 2018, 22:03   #49771  |  Link
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Originally Posted by oldpainlesskodi View Post
Odd, must be my set up then if you tried the Martian movie - With NV i see oversatuarted colours, whilst not showing all the gradients, and some ringing artifacts on the small stones on the martian land as it zooms in, but with the OS HDR I get done of those issues, and the image is far clearer/vibrant.

K
Did you turn off the OS HDR switch when using the Nvidia API?
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Old 23rd March 2018, 23:54   #49772  |  Link
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By gamut I meant color volume. The 2D gamut, or the primaries measured at 100% brightness, is not really the gamut as they are defined in the specs, even though we often look at them like that. Linearity is less important when using a 3DLUT.

It was the Calman reports that were depressing, the primaries are quite good so at a quick glance the coverage looks great but as soon as you measure the full 3D space it doesn't look so good. It is fine for viewing, HDR content looks great, but it is a strong reminder that the HDR specs are well outside what current consumer displays can do.
This is because you measured BT2020, which isn't relevant for 99.99% of current content. Most recent consumer displays cover at least 90% of DCI-P3, which is enough to reproduce well most current content.

Linearity is always important. It's easier to correct linearity with a 3D LUT, but you can still have linearity issues with a 3D LUT depending on the number of points used in the cube etc.

Regarding color volume, you want to measure DCI-P3 within BT-2020. BT2020 is only a container. Unless your display is really poor (or is a projector), it shouldn't be so bad if you measure the correct color volume (i.e. the effective one, not the theoretical one).
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Old 24th March 2018, 02:48   #49773  |  Link
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How come the one user has no problems with Windows OS HDR at 12-bits? It must be the tone mapping done by the display.
I've been doing further testing and managed to capture better screenshots (download and present them at 1:1 resolution) to exemplify my findings:

NV HDR triggered by madVR (output 10 bit) BANDING
NV HDR triggered by madVR (output 8 bit) NO BANDING
OS HDR enabled at Windows 10 (output 10 bit) NO BANDING (no screenshot available, too bright)

I've also noticed that with OS HDR disabled, and sending the metadata at madVR (NV HDR), the OSD only shows D3D11 fullscreen windowed (10 bit) when MPC-HC's seek bar isn't showing, otherwise it shows (8 bit). Keeps alternating from (10 bit) to (8 bit) when the mouse cursor moves down to the seek bar, for example.

But when with the HDR toggle enabled at the Win 10 display settings and madVR no sending metadata to the display (OS HDR), the OSD always shows D3D11 fullscreen windowed (10 bit), even when you move the cursor to the seek bar, or exits fullscreen. It ALWAYS shows (10 bit) at the OSD.

And, at last, D3D11's fullscreen exclusive always shows D3D11 exclusive (10 bit) and has NO BANDING.

So, to conclude, D3D11 exclusive NV HDR = Win10 OS HDR (both banding free)

Hope this helps further understanding why Windows' HDR toggle results in perfect picture without banding, and madVR sending the metadata to the display (NV HDR) on windowed mode doesn't.
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Old 24th March 2018, 07:53   #49774  |  Link
foxyshadis
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Jeesh, what is it with this site and image uploads? It's not a video, it's a simple tiny image. Anxious for you guys to look it over. I see other folks post and their image shows immediately? Please, someone explain what I've done wrong.

In manage attachments I uploaded a 900k .jpg direct from my PC to here and posted. It said pending approval.
I removed attachment and checked post to see that it was gone.
Uploaded .jpg to imgur.com, then copied link to here. It said pending again. Noticed it said 200k max.
I removed pending image again.
I cropped image down to nothing (162KB), uploaded from my PC to here and posted. Pending this one too.
Removed and checked post to see it was gone.
Uploaded 162KB to imgur.com, copied url, and posted. Says pending again.
Help?
Report your own post, say "approve plz" and it'll get approved. I don't think the 200k thing is a real limit.

Unfortunately vBulletin in all of its wisdom notifies mods of reports but does NOT notify us of pending approvals, so the only option is to wade into threads on the off chance someone might have attached something. There's the mod panel, but it's... lousy, at best. I check on this thread twice a week, but it's so active I miss a lot. Now that we all work way more than full time, the rules page really needs a Rule #0: Report your own post for prompt service.
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Old 24th March 2018, 08:36   #49775  |  Link
oldpainlesskodi
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Did you turn off the OS HDR switch when using the Nvidia API?
Yes

K
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Old 24th March 2018, 10:57   #49776  |  Link
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When using OS HDR (MadVR send metadata disabled), how does that even work? Does windows send the metadata to the display?
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Old 24th March 2018, 11:06   #49777  |  Link
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Can someone explain to me how to setup a profile to automatically enable 3D when a 3D movie is launched via kodi with MPC-BE as an external player? The MadVR's setting "automatically enable 3D" doesn't work, I must check the box manually prior to watching.

I've seen some people mention that this is possible but could never figure it out. For reference, I use 3D frame packed MKVs.

Last edited by tyrindor; 24th March 2018 at 11:08.
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Old 24th March 2018, 11:13   #49778  |  Link
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When using OS HDR (MadVR send metadata disabled), how does that even work? Does windows send the metadata to the display?
I don't know. Windows is able to trigger HDR mode, but may do the tone or gamut mapping rather than the display.
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Old 24th March 2018, 11:16   #49779  |  Link
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Originally Posted by BatKnight View Post
I've been doing further testing and managed to capture better screenshots (download and present them at 1:1 resolution) to exemplify my findings:

NV HDR triggered by madVR (output 10 bit) BANDING
NV HDR triggered by madVR (output 8 bit) NO BANDING
OS HDR enabled at Windows 10 (output 10 bit) NO BANDING (no screenshot available, too bright)

I've also noticed that with OS HDR disabled, and sending the metadata at madVR (NV HDR), the OSD only shows D3D11 fullscreen windowed (10 bit) when MPC-HC's seek bar isn't showing, otherwise it shows (8 bit). Keeps alternating from (10 bit) to (8 bit) when the mouse cursor moves down to the seek bar, for example.

But when with the HDR toggle enabled at the Win 10 display settings and madVR no sending metadata to the display (OS HDR), the OSD always shows D3D11 fullscreen windowed (10 bit), even when you move the cursor to the seek bar, or exits fullscreen. It ALWAYS shows (10 bit) at the OSD.

And, at last, D3D11's fullscreen exclusive always shows D3D11 exclusive (10 bit) and has NO BANDING.

So, to conclude, D3D11 exclusive NV HDR = Win10 OS HDR (both banding free)

Hope this helps further understanding why Windows' HDR toggle results in perfect picture without banding, and madVR sending the metadata to the display (NV HDR) on windowed mode doesn't.
On my computer display, I can't see a difference, but I believe you. Sounds like a strange technical bug. Good to know. FSE it is.

It's probably not the tone mapping that is the problem.
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Old 24th March 2018, 11:38   #49780  |  Link
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Of course. Its not like NVIDIA doesn't support 10-bit, they just only offer 8-bit and the highest format supported in the settings. My PC screen here which only supports 10-bit also makes NVIDIA offer that in the control panel.
So you could take the EDID from your screen as-is, and just remove the 12-bit modes, and it should instead offer you 10-bit options.
Good suggestion, but not as straightforward as this it seems.

I've asked HD Fury to create a couple of test EDIDs with 12bits disabled, so that the Vertex/Integral/Linker reports exactly the same EDID with 12bits disabled. I asked for the one I usually use (full capability as well as a few others). None of these resulted in 10bits appearing in the NV CP. I'm talking RGB 4:4:4 of course, we already have 8/10/12bits options in YCC 4:2:2.

Apparently its because there is no standard for VIC with RGB 4:4:4 10bits, so there is an element of luck regarding what your display is going to report. In fact I think 10bits wasn't supported at all in HDMI 1.4 for UHD resolutions, which might be one of the reasons why nVidia has limited 10bits options.

So it looks like we would need nVidia not to expect VICs to be able to force 10bits for all displays using the methodology you suggested. Or possibly find another way to alter the EDID reported by the display, but the Vertex/Integral is quite good at doing this so I don't think that's an option.

Don't ask me what VICs are, I have no idea, but you probably do.
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