madVR - high quality video renderer (GPU assisted)

[Nevilne]

you need to scale after NNEDI3 anyway so it's only origin shift (note that i'm not sure if that's madvr's shift, or this is about chroma)

[Ava Pug]

v0.88.9/10 has fixed my issue with DX11 and my Intel GPU. Thanks!

edit: I have noticed it still goes glitchy gif like when its playing in windowed mode but I can live with that since I normally watch fullscreen.

[huhn]

Originally Posted by Nevilne

you need to scale after NNEDI3 anyway so it's only origin shift (note that i'm not sure if that's madvr's shift, or this is about chroma)

you don't need to scale after nnedi3 luma doubling.

chroma just needs to be scaled differently but that's it.

[MS-DOS]

Originally Posted by madshi

@huhn, at some point you said you knew registry tweaks to force the driver to not dither, didn't you? Can you write up a small summary on those registry keys? Do you know that only for NVidia or also for AMD and Intel? Thanks!

I'll answer for huhn: https://www.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=172128 My quote in the first post.

[SecurityBunny]

One final question. Apologies for my ignorance.

Do I need to make sure the average rendering time is below the vsync interval for smooth motion to function as intended and be judder free? Or do I only need to worry about being under the movie frame interval?

[madshi]

Originally Posted by ryrynz

Maybe it's gotten better since then? I have it enabled in MPDN on the 750Ti and I haven't encountered any issues that I know of.

MPDN does some extra processing, which is GPU specific, to work around driver issues. And it seems the GPU drivers are doing extra stuff behind the scenes when using 16bit output. I don't like any of that. I want untouched output, not GPU driver post-processed output. Furthermore, most displays out there today don't even support 10bit natively. So why using a badly supported and obviously GPU driver post-processed 16bit output mode, if the display's native bitdepth is at best 10bit, anyway?

Originally Posted by ryrynz

Potentially or definitely? If it's an easy fix why not just try it and see?

You can't move an image by 0.5 pixels losslessly. Moving the image does come at a certain cost. How much cost is hard to say. NNEDI3 produces somewhat "soft" upscales, so maybe because of that the loss wouldn't be big. But tell me: Why should I be doing extra processing, which not only costs extra GPU power, but also may lose some image quality? Just so that you can compare NNEDI3 upscales better to other image upscaling configurations? That makes no sense. An extra processing step should only be performed if it's useful. I see no usefulness in fixing the NNEDI3 pixel shift, for normal video playback.

Originally Posted by Nevilne

you need to scale after NNEDI3 anyway so it's only origin shift

If you play e.g. Blu-Rays on a 4K display, there's no further scaling needed after NNEDI3. However, in many other situations you're right, and NNEDI3 is followed up by one more linear scaling algo. In that case fixing the NNEDI3 pixel shift would be possible without losing much (if any) quality. At one point madVR did exactly that. But it caused problems (artifacts) with the anti-ringing filter, so that's why I disabled that again.

Once again: Why fixing the pixel shift? There's no good reason to do that. At least none that comes to my mind.

Originally Posted by MS-DOS

I'll answer for huhn: https://www.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=172128 My quote in the first post.

Ah, thanks! How about NVidia and Intel?

Originally Posted by SecurityBunny

One final question. Apologies for my ignorance.

Do I need to make sure the average rendering time is below the vsync interval for smooth motion to function as intended and be judder free? Or do I only need to worry about being under the movie frame interval?

Let's make it easier: As long as you have no frame drops and glitches, you're fine.

[huhn]

Originally Posted by madshi

And what happens if you go back to v0.88.8 and test that with the 32bit madVR first? I suppose probably you'll get a black screen then, too?

yes just test 0.88.8 32 into 64 bit. still broken so nothing wrong with your new code i guess. which is very good.

32 bit nnedi3 on nvidia is broken anyway that's to there driver so no huge lost here.
it would be nice if some can reproduce this issue like it is.

you should have gotten an error report from me yesterday.

this error comes when a file is played to the end with the nnedi3 error.

edit:
about dithering.

there is a chance nvidia isn't dithering.
James Freeman stated that the GPU driver "damaging algorithm" add banding so the results is not dithered. which is an indicator for this.

but i haven't test this yet myself. i need my TV to do a proper test and that's not connected to my nvidia PC.

[iSunrise]

Originally Posted by 6233638

It's not harmful like Lanczos8 is, just not the best option to use.

To be fair, I also used Lanczos 8 quite a lot, but ONLY because we didn't have a native (fast and max. quality) and mild sharpening filter within madVR.

The results with Lanczos 8 and AR were the sharpest of them all and still relatively cheap performance-wise, without ever having to invoke NNEDI3. But it was never really used other than to just sharpen content by me.

As such, I would not really miss it though.

EDIT: madVR now has sharpening, need to retest.

[huhn]

there is finesharp and lumasharpen in madVR

[leeperry]

Originally Posted by madshi

I think that's a bug in the Intel GPU driver. Doesn't happen with AMD or NVidia. However, it doesn't happen on my HD4000, either. So it's hard for me to work on this. I'll get a newer laptop with Intel GPU later this year, though, then I can investigate this in depth.

When I moved from XP to W7 I complained about the flashing black frames when switching between FSE and FSW(which didn't occur on XP) and you said that they were expected behavior? The zombie frames on top of it when enabling Aero are also "normal" apparently? XP made pristine FSE/FSW transitions, that was so cool

Originally Posted by madshi

you said you knew registry tweaks to force the driver to not dither, didn't you? Can you write up a small summary on those registry keys? Do you know that only for NVidia or also for AMD and Intel?

It's all here for AMD.

[iSunrise]

Originally Posted by huhn

there is finesharp and lumasharpen in madVR

Yes, you are correct, thanks for reminding me, I must have completely overlooked that. I edited my above post so that it reflects only my specific usage of Lanczos 8.

[Xaurus]

Originally Posted by madshi

Can I see a screenshot of the complaint, please?

Certainly.

http://home.halden.net/mordor/madvr.png

Yey! The latest madVR 88.10 fixed D3D11 presentation glitches problem on my TV. With 88.8 release, I was able to enable D3D11 and Sync sub-option only on my 120Hz monitor, but not my TV @ 23Hz (I would get presentation glitches). This new build fixed it!

Someone else was asking whether they could see dithering when 10bit+ mode selected. On my 12bit TV (can select 12bit in nVidia CP) and with madVR set to use 10bit+ depth, I do NOT see any dithering what-so-ever, even though Error Diffusion Option 2 (+ both sub-options) is selected. Is that normal? Maybe at 12bit, ER or any kind of dithering is practically not noticeable?

[huhn]

Originally Posted by XMonarchY

Yey! The latest madVR 88.10 fixed D3D11 presentation glitches problem on my TV. With 88.8 release, I was able to enable D3D11 and Sync sub-option only on my 120Hz monitor, but not my TV @ 23Hz (I would get presentation glitches). This new build fixed it!

Someone else was asking whether they could see dithering when 10bit+ mode selected. On my 12bit TV (can select 12bit in nVidia CP) and with madVR set to use 10bit+ depth, I do NOT see any dithering what-so-ever, even though Error Diffusion Option 2 (+ both sub-options) is selected. Is that normal? Maybe at 12bit, ER or any kind of dithering is practically not noticeable?

ED is not used at 10 bit output.

and getting 12 bit in a TV means nothing. it is totally default that this is possible.

[madshi]

Originally Posted by leeperry

When I moved from XP to W7 I complained about the flashing black frames when switching between FSE and FSW(which didn't occur on XP) and you said that they were expected behavior? The zombie frames on top of it when enabling Aero are also "normal" apparently?

I don't remember what you said or I said ages ago. The switching between FSE and windowed mode was improved a while ago. With Intel GPUs there are still some weird things going on for some users, when using DX11 presentation or "use a separate device for presentation". But that's limited to Intel.

Originally Posted by Xaurus

Certainly.

http://home.halden.net/mordor/madvr.png

That doesn't look like v0.88.10 to me. Are you sure you really updated? Maybe there are more than one madVR installations on your PC? E.g. JRiver MC comes with its own installation.

Originally Posted by XMonarchY

I do NOT see any dithering what-so-ever, even though [B]Error Diffusion Option 2 (+ both sub-options) is selected. Is that normal? Maybe at 12bit, ER or any kind of dithering is practically not noticeable?

madVR outputs 10bit, nor 12bit. The rest is probably zero bits added by NVidia. But it's quite possible that you can't see dithering at 10bit. Even at 8bit dithering noise is already quite low. At 10bit it's 4x lower than at 8bit. The more important question is whether the image is still perfectly smooth and banding-free at 10bit, compared to 8bit. That will depend on the display.

Originally Posted by huhn

ED is not used at 10 bit output.

It is now, with v0.88.9/10.

Originally Posted by madshi

madVR outputs 10bit, nor 12bit. The rest is probably zero bits added by NVidia. But it's quite possible that you can't see dithering at 10bit. Even at 8bit dithering noise is already quite low. At 10bit it's 4x lower than at 8bit. The more important question is whether the image is still perfectly smooth and banding-free at 10bit, compared to 8bit. That will depend on the display.

Oh God - yes, the image is perfectly smooth, not a single band even in low quality content. It is just hard to really tell whether 12bit with previous release (10bit madVR setting = Ordered Dithering, even if ER is selected) looks better/worse with current release (10bit madVR setting = ER, if selected).

[shaolin95]

Originally Posted by madshi

Might be that your driver is dithering. I don't know.

@huhn, at some point you said you knew registry tweaks to force the driver to not dither, didn't you? Can you write up a small summary on those registry keys? Do you know that only for NVidia or also for AMD and Intel? Thanks!

One extra piece of information. When I do the same ramp 10 bit test with MPDN instead of MPC with MADVR, I cannot get the "banding" to show smooth even when switching to full screen in 10 bit or higher. It just looks 8 bit and clearly visible bands.
So I only get the nice smooth image with MPC/MADVR but that still leaves the question open about why it gets smooth if Nvidia Control Panel is not giving me the option for 10bcp at all.

A user just PMed me telling me he sees the 10bcp option at 24Hz but not at 60Hz. I tried yesterday at 48Hz so I will check. Perhaps somehow my project is still capable of 10bcp after all.

As a side not, this latest Nvidia driver seem to mess up the TV levels or at least it was making the projector detected Auto incorrectly after the upgrade. No other setting was changed.

In any case, more testing to come later tonight.


BTW, when in the Chroma options I am selecting the NEDDI3 32 setting but what is the SuperRes option in there supposed to do? I know it increases the performance hit but not sure what I am gaining.

Thanks and sorry for the many Qs!

[Budtz]

Im experiancing a short black screen when switching from FSE to windowed mode in mpchc in d11 mode. It switches instantly in d9 mode. Is this intended?

[Siso]

Originally Posted by Budtz

Im experiancing a short black screen when switching from FSE to windowed mode in mpchc in d11 mode. It switches instantly in d9 mode. Is this intended?

Same here, along with the high present stats in D3D11 windowed mode.

[Anime Viewer]

Originally Posted by shaolin95

BTW, when in the Chroma options I am selecting the NEDDI3 32 setting but what is the SuperRes option in there supposed to do? I know it increases the performance hit but not sure what I am gaining.

Thanks and sorry for the many Qs!

madshi wants to focus on debanding effects/comparison at the moment, so he may not be to interested in answering that question for you. Chroma's SuperRes option effects the sharpness, anti-alaising, softness, and anti-ringing chroma. Most people have a hard time seeing differences. From full screen video check and uncheck it clicking apply each time to see if you can notice a difference. If you don't then you might as well leave it unchecked and save resources for other features. NNEDI3 is very resource demanding, and many people (myself included) see better performance and visual quality when they combine a lesser chroma scaler with ChromaSuperRes then they do with NNEDI3. Your opinion may be the same or differ, so experiment and make your own conclusion.