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Old 24th December 2016, 17:55   #41721  |  Link
Oguignant
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Yes, thks Rgbw .... whatever, the movies look amazing on this tv ...
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Old 24th December 2016, 18:30   #41722  |  Link
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23, 24, 25, 29mhz..etc The options are the same as in 60mhz.
What about scaling options? On my LG, when in PC mode, all scaling functions are disabled. Zoom functions are only selectable when not in PC mode. I'm going to guess though that whether in PC mode or not, its converting to YCbCr. Just set NV panel to RGB full and on your TV set black level to high. And then forget about it. At the end of the day, like you say, oleds look amazing. I should be so lucky (wife says no) :-)

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Old 24th December 2016, 22:02   #41723  |  Link
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What about scaling options? On my LG, when in PC mode, all scaling functions are disabled. Zoom functions are only selectable when not in PC mode. I'm going to guess though that whether in PC mode or not, its converting to YCbCr. Just set NV panel to RGB full and on your TV set black level to high. And then forget about it. At the end of the day, like you say, oleds look amazing. I should be so lucky (wife says no) :-)
In this Tv, when PC mode is On, super resolution is enabled. I use it as Low.
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Old 25th December 2016, 12:00   #41724  |  Link
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Hello, this is a bit off-topic but I'm really willing to know what's the right setting and by the way it's Christmas so everyone is better and nicer and I'm sure you won't mind the question

My Nvidia panel is set RGB Full, Lav Filters with PC output 0-255 and TV supports 4:4:4

I've got a XD93 4K HDR TV, in the picture settings I have two voices:

X-tended Dynamic Range (can be set: off/Low/Medium/High)
and
Colour Space (can be set to: Auto/sRGB-BT.709/DCI/BT2020)

What's the best setting? About colour space I'm knee to keep it Auto but now XDR is set to off...

Any indication is appreciated !

Thanks and MERRY CHRISTMAS !
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Old 25th December 2016, 12:23   #41725  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Knight77 View Post
Hello, this is a bit off-topic but I'm really willing to know what's the right setting and by the way it's Christmas so everyone is better and nicer and I'm sure you won't mind the question

My Nvidia panel is set RGB Full, Lav Filters with PC output 0-255 and TV supports 4:4:4

I've got a XD93 4K HDR TV, in the picture settings I have two voices:

X-tended Dynamic Range (can be set: off/Low/Medium/High)
and
Colour Space (can be set to: Auto/sRGB-BT.709/DCI/BT2020)

What's the best setting? About colour space I'm knee to keep it Auto but now XDR is set to off...

Any indication is appreciated !

Thanks and MERRY CHRISTMAS !
Merry Crhistmas too!!!

X-tended Dynamic Range PRO increases the quality of HDR and even non-HDR content by revitalizing every scene with the widest range of brightness possible. It goes in tastes. I prefer not to use any image processing on the TV, it always makes it look artificial.

As for Color Space, you can leave it in Auto if it works correctly. If you use bt-2020 or DCI with encoded content for view bt-709 content, you will see some saturated colors.

The new video standard for Ultra High Definition content is BT.2020 (colors closer to reality)
The BT-2020 color standard lets you display about 3/4 of the visible color spectrum. The video standard for HD content (BT-709 Standard) only reproduces 30% of the spectrum reproduced by the new standard for 4k/UHD BT-2020.

DCI is the one that will be implemented the soonest, and it represents the basic color requirement of the HDR spec. To meet the minimum HDR requirements, a TV must be able to display over 90% of the DCI color space.

The main difference between DCI and bt-709 (the current standard color space) is that DCI can display many more tones of green, though there is also a slight expansion to the number of red tones. The number of blue tones was unchanged. Altogether, it covers just over half of the visual spectrum, and will provide a pretty significant increase in picture quality over bt-709, which covers only about 35% of the visual spectrum.

Hope this can help you!
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Old 25th December 2016, 13:25   #41726  |  Link
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Merry Crhistmas too!!!

X-tended Dynamic Range PRO increases the quality of HDR and even non-HDR content by revitalizing every scene with the widest range of brightness possible. It goes in tastes. I prefer not to use any image processing on the TV, it always makes it look artificial.

As for Color Space, you can leave it in Auto if it works correctly. If you use bt-2020 or DCI with encoded content for view bt-709 content, you will see some saturated colors.

The new video standard for Ultra High Definition content is BT.2020 (colors closer to reality)
The BT-2020 color standard lets you display about 3/4 of the visible color spectrum. The video standard for HD content (BT-709 Standard) only reproduces 30% of the spectrum reproduced by the new standard for 4k/UHD BT-2020.

DCI is the one that will be implemented the soonest, and it represents the basic color requirement of the HDR spec. To meet the minimum HDR requirements, a TV must be able to display over 90% of the DCI color space.

The main difference between DCI and bt-709 (the current standard color space) is that DCI can display many more tones of green, though there is also a slight expansion to the number of red tones. The number of blue tones was unchanged. Altogether, it covers just over half of the visual spectrum, and will provide a pretty significant increase in picture quality over bt-709, which covers only about 35% of the visual spectrum.

Hope this can help you!
Thank you very much!

Well I guess I'll leave XDR on Off and Colour Space on Auto.

I read everywhere (AVSForum+AVforums) that with the current content is better to leave XDR off but well I wanted to be sure, anyway I also prefer to do not use much processing.

About the Colour Space I got that BT2020 will be used mainly with UDH content...bTW with the normal 1080p Serials and movies I guess we're still with REC709, what about the UHD content "coming" for Nextfilx and Amazon ?

Thank you again!
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Old 25th December 2016, 13:57   #41727  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Knight77 View Post
Thank you very much!

Well I guess I'll leave XDR on Off and Colour Space on Auto.

I read everywhere (AVSForum+AVforums) that with the current content is better to leave XDR off but well I wanted to be sure, anyway I also prefer to do not use much processing.

About the Colour Space I got that BT2020 will be used mainly with UDH content...bTW with the normal 1080p Serials and movies I guess we're still with REC709, what about the UHD content "coming" for Nextfilx and Amazon ?

Thank you again!
I prefer to see the image with real colors without any processing. But there are people who like to adorn it with the processing of the TV. Not to me, that's why I switched my Sony TV for an oled Tv. They are personal tastes.

Netflix just started uploading HDR content. You need a very good internet connection, at least 25 mbps. There you also have to use color space Auto. My TV detects HDR content and automatically activates it, I do not know how it is on your Sony TV.
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Old 25th December 2016, 17:18   #41728  |  Link
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Matrix and primaries

Hi. Can someone explain to me what happens when the MATRIX is BT.709 and the primaries are bt.2020? What is the difference between matrix and primaries?
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Old 25th December 2016, 19:15   #41729  |  Link
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The matrix determines the formula (more specifically, the coefficients) that is used to convert from YCbCr to RGB and vice-versa.

The primaries determines what R, G, and B correspond to in actual color, as in, they are the coordinates of pure red, green, and blue (usually specified in the XYZ color space). For example, a BT.2020 R=0% G=100% B=0% color will be "greener" (more saturated) than the same color in DCI-P3, which will itself be more saturated than the same color in BT.709 (or sRGB, which is identical in that aspect).

These two concepts are completely independent - there's nothing stopping you from playing a video file using a BT.601 matrix and SMPTE-C primaries, for example. Of course, you need to match the parameters that the video was produced with (usually specified in the metadata of the video file), otherwise the colours will look wrong.
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Old 25th December 2016, 20:59   #41730  |  Link
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Hi, I know this is offtopic but I got a 4K TV a few days ago and I cannot calibrate it using AVS HD 709 patterns, so I am gonna buy a colorimeter soon. And I would like to learn everything I could about display calibration. Could anyone provide me some links to start with the basics. I also would like to know if it is worth creating a 3dLUT for madVR if you already have the TV well calibrated by BT.709 standard. Thanks and Merry Christmas!!!

Enviado desde mi MI 4LTE mediante Tapatalk

Last edited by fedpul; 25th December 2016 at 21:01.
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Old 25th December 2016, 21:56   #41731  |  Link
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Merry Christmas, everyone!!
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Old 26th December 2016, 01:51   #41732  |  Link
Ver Greeneyes
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Originally Posted by fedpul View Post
And I would like to learn everything I could about display calibration. Could anyone provide me some links to start with the basics.
I suggest starting with this topic, and maybe asking there for further information (check out the rest of that forum too).
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Old 26th December 2016, 09:27   #41733  |  Link
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calibration controls for this display

Hi,

What is the difference between pure power curve and bt.709/601 curve?
Which should I choose? My tv supports bt.709, dci p3 and bt.2020. gamma 1.9, 2.2, 2.4 and bt.1886. I calibrate the tv using gamma 2.2
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Old 26th December 2016, 11:47   #41734  |  Link
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white screen with noise after pause/resume or seeking

I have a issue I haven't been able to solve with scaling from 2k to 4k.

Normal playback is fine. rendering time around 29ms. But when I pause and resume playback or seek forwards and backwards, quite often the picture disappears and I get a screen which is mainly white with sometimes a vague noise outline of the major contrast areas. Sound remains fine.

I'm running Windows 7 32 bit, gtx 1070 with drivers 376.33, mpc-hc 1.7.10. Have also tried mpc-be 1.5.0 but has the same problem. Lav filter .68.1, madvr .91.4

madvr settings:
pc levels
10 bit
display already calibrated
bt.709
bt.709 curve 2.40

artefact removal - reduce banding effects medium/high
image enhancements - none

chroma upscaling - NGU high
image downscaling - jinc, scale in linear light, activate anti-ringing filter relaxed
image upscaling - NGU luma very high, chroma normal
after doubling - upscaling jinc ar, downscaling use image downscaling settings
upscaling refinement - soften edges 1

rendering - in general settings I've tried every combo I could think of here, without solving problem

currently have :
delay playback and delay playback after seeking
enable windowed overlay
use direct3d 11 and present a frame for every vsync
use a separate device for presentation
cpu queue size 16
gpu queue size 8

all default settings for windowed mode

smooth motion off
dithering - error diffusion 2
trade quality for performance - everything off

If I select enable full screen exclusive mode, playback seems fine and pause/resume and seeking seems fine, but I get a big red "Out of Memory" across the screen.

lav filters:
NVidia cuvid, I have also tried dxva2 copy back with same result

pc levels
random dithering


Any suggestions on what I could do or try to solve this problem? I'm very impressed with the video quality madvr produces, but not really useable for me with this problem.

Thanks!

Last edited by ausvette; 26th December 2016 at 12:23.
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Old 26th December 2016, 11:57   #41735  |  Link
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Originally Posted by e-t172 View Post
A Blu-ray player will typically output YCbCr (directly from the decoded video stream) over HDMI. The TV does the YCbCr → RGB conversion.

Internally, a PC GPU works in RGB only. A PC will typically output RGB over HDMI. The TV just passes its through (hopefully) untouched.

If you enable YCbCr output in your GPU driver settings, the GPU will output YCbCr over HDMI. But internally, it still works in RGB. So what's going to happen is that the GPU will internally convert RGB to YCbCr, then send it over HDMI, then the TV will convert YCbCr back to RGB. The double conversion is pointless, and is likely to degrade quality (especially if there's chroma subsampling going on, or the PC and the TV disagree about which matrix to use).

Putting it all together, here's what happens when using madVR:

GPU driver configured to output RGB: LAV decoder output (YCbCr) → madVR (converts from YCbCr to RGB) → HDMI output (RGB) → TV (RGB)

GPU driver configured to output YCbCr: LAV decoder output (YCbCr) → madVR (converts from YCbCr to RGB) → HDMI output (converts from RGB to YCbCr) → TV (converts from YCbCr to RGB)

Hopefully you can see now that the second configuration doesn't make a ton of sense!
The bolded part above is true in theory (especially with PC monitors) but not correct most of the time in practice with TV/projectors.

If the display has color/hue controls, it has to convert the input signal to YcBcR to apply color/hue, then convert to RGB to display.

So if you send RGB, what happens usually with a TV/Projector is RGB > YCB (for color decoder controls) > RGB.

This means sending RGB results in one extra conversion [EDIT: on the TV side, not overall, see posts below].

The best way to check if your display converts to YCB before displaying in RGB is to try to change color/hue. If they are available/active, then the display converts to YCB even if you send RGB, before converting back to RGB.

This doesn't mean that RGB isn't better for MadVR (unless it causes levels issues), it's definitely what Madshi recommends for MadVR, just that it doesn't' necessarily create the "cleanest" path from a conversion point of view.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Oguignant View Post
Merry Crhistmas too!!!

X-tended Dynamic Range PRO increases the quality of HDR and even non-HDR content by revitalizing every scene with the widest range of brightness possible. It goes in tastes. I prefer not to use any image processing on the TV, it always makes it look artificial.

As for Color Space, you can leave it in Auto if it works correctly. If you use bt-2020 or DCI with encoded content for view bt-709 content, you will see some saturated colors.

The new video standard for Ultra High Definition content is BT.2020 (colors closer to reality)
The BT-2020 color standard lets you display about 3/4 of the visible color spectrum. The video standard for HD content (BT-709 Standard) only reproduces 30% of the spectrum reproduced by the new standard for 4k/UHD BT-2020.

DCI is the one that will be implemented the soonest, and it represents the basic color requirement of the HDR spec. To meet the minimum HDR requirements, a TV must be able to display over 90% of the DCI color space.

The main difference between DCI and bt-709 (the current standard color space) is that DCI can display many more tones of green, though there is also a slight expansion to the number of red tones. The number of blue tones was unchanged. Altogether, it covers just over half of the visual spectrum, and will provide a pretty significant increase in picture quality over bt-709, which covers only about 35% of the visual spectrum.

Hope this can help you!
This is incorrect too. DCI isn't and will never be used for consumer sources. It's used in cinema sources, and grading monitors are today still calibrated to DCI, but they use BT2020 as a container to distribute consumer content, so for consumers it's either rec-709 (bluray/HDTV) or BT2020 (UHD Bluray/UHDTV).

Content at the moment doesn't go further than DCI primaries, but it will progressively get closer to BT2020. Still, from a calibration point of view, DCI is irrelevant. You should never use a DCI mode with consumer content. If you do, the colors won't track accurately as even if the content was mastered on DCI monitors, it was encoded using BT2020 saturations.

For example, all current UHD Bluray titles report DCI primaries in the metadata, but that only tells the limitations of the grading monitor. It doesn't mean that the content was mastered using DCI primaries. All UHD Bluray titles are encoded using BT2020 primaries. The content doesn't reach the full gamut yet (like from a luminance point of view, the content doesn't reach the theoretical max of 10,000nits, but is closer to 1000-2500nits at most, even when graded at 4000nits).
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Old 26th December 2016, 12:01   #41736  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Manni View Post
So if you send RGB, what happens usually with a TV/Projector is RGB > YCB (for color decoder controls) > RGB.

This means sending RGB results in one extra conversion.
Thats not true, it just moves the conversion from the GPU to the TV, since PCs are inherently RGB, and personally I would prefer to let the TV do that if it has to, because it has a chance to preserve higher bitdepth and zero chance of messing up the matrix.

RGB Output from the GPU:
madVR RGB -> GPU RGB -> TV converts to YCbCr -> TV converts to RGB for display

YCbCr Output from the GPU:
madVR RGB -> GPU converts to YCbCr -> TV YCbCr -> TV converts to RGB for display

On top of that, RGB output has a chance to skip the YCbCr step in the TV entirely, since a TV can implement color management in RGB. I don't know how TVs typically work, but you don't have to use YCbCr to change the Hue. You would more likely use HSL space for that.
Many TVs offer CMS options in PC/Game mode, which at least means it preserves full 4:4:4 chroma, and often that also means it never leaves RGB since their entire YCbCr processing path is typically limited to 4:2:2
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Old 26th December 2016, 12:09   #41737  |  Link
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Thats not true, it just moves the conversion from the GPU to the TV, and personally I would prefer to let the TV do that if it has to, because it has a chance to preserve higher bitdepth and zero chance of messing up the matrix.

RGB Output from the GPU:
madVR RGB -> GPU RGB -> TV converts to YCbCr -> TV converts to RGB for display

YCbCr Output from the GPU:
madVR RGB -> GPU converts to YCbCr -> TV YCbCr -> TV converts to RGB for display

On top of that, RGB output has a chance to skip the YCbCr step in the TV entirely, since a TV can implement color management in RGB. I don't know how TVs typically work, but you don't have to use YCbCr to change the Hue. You would more likely use HSL space for that.
Hi Nevcairiel,

This is a misunderstanding, I meant sending RGB to a TV/Projector usually means one extra conversion ON THE TV SIDE, compared to what had been posted earlier, that implied that sending RGB meant no extra conversion (in other words, that using RGB out from the GPU meant a "pure" RGB chain from MadVR output).

I did NOT mean that sending RGB means one extra conversion overall (I agree with the overall chains you posted), thanks for clarifying that if that's the way my post could be read.

Regarding how TV/Projectors work, I'm quoting what engineers told me (which is that the color/hue controls can't work in RGB, which leads to an extra internal conversion to YCB unless the color/hue controls are disabled when receiving RGB). They know more about this than I do.
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Old 26th December 2016, 12:23   #41738  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ausvette View Post
lav filters:
NVidia cuvid, I have also tried dxva2 copy back with same result
Software decoding method produce same problem for you? Try in LAV video Hardware decoder to use: None.
Also, uncheck windowed overlay (it work in dx9 mode) and use a separate device for presentation (test it, performance can be better\worse).
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Old 26th December 2016, 12:44   #41739  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni View Post
The bolded part above is true in theory (especially with PC monitors) but not correct most of the time in practice with TV/projectors.




If the display has color/hue controls, it has to convert the input signal to YcBcR to apply color/hue, then convert to RGB to display.

So if you send RGB, what happens usually with a TV/Projector is RGB > YCB (for color decoder controls) > RGB.

This means sending RGB results in one extra conversion.

The best way to check if your display converts to YCB before displaying in RGB is to try to change color/hue. If they are available/active, then the display converts to YCB even if you send RGB, before converting back to RGB.

This doesn't mean that RGB isn't better for MadVR (unless it causes levels issues), it's definitely what Madshi recommends for MadVR, just that it doesn't' necessarily create the "cleanest" path from a conversion point of view.




This is incorrect too. DCI isn't and will never be used for consumer sources. It's used in cinema sources, and grading monitors are today still calibrated to DCI, but they use BT2020 as a container to distribute consumer content, so for consumers it's either rec-709 (bluray/HDTV) or BT2020 (UHD Bluray/UHDTV).

Content at the moment doesn't go further than DCI primaries, but it will progressively get closer to BT2020. Still, from a calibration point of view, DCI is irrelevant. You should never use a DCI mode with consumer content. If you do, the colors won't track accurately as even if the content was mastered on DCI monitors, it was encoded using BT2020 saturations.

For example, all current UHD Bluray titles report DCI primaries in the metadata, but that only tells the limitations of the grading monitor. It doesn't mean that the content was mastered using DCI primaries. All UHD Bluray titles are encoded using BT2020 primaries. The content doesn't reach the full gamut yet (like from a luminance point of view, the content doesn't reach the theoretical max of 10,000nits, but is closer to 1000-2500nits at most, even when graded at 4000nits).
I sending rgb signal from nv card. In the Tv menu, i have this options in color managment, Saturation, Tint and luminance, for red, green, blue, yellow, cyan and magenta.




Does it mean that TV converts the RGB signal from NV to yCbCr, and then to RGB again?
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Last edited by Oguignant; 26th December 2016 at 13:14.
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Old 26th December 2016, 13:32   #41740  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Oguignant View Post
I sending rgb signal from nv card. In the Tv menu, i have this options in color managment, Saturation, Tint and luminance, for red, green, blue, yellow, cyan and magenta.

Does it mean that TV converts the RGB signal from NV to yCbCr, and then to RGB again?
If the last two controls (color/tint) are still active when inputting RGB, this is very likely, but as I posted initially and as discussed with Nevairiel, it doesn't mean that RGB output isn't the better option for MadVR. It likely is (as long as it doesn't cause levels issues with other software). I only wanted to make it clear that outputting RGB to a TV/projector usually results in just as many colorspace conversions as outputting YCB, as you have one less on the PC side but one more on the TV side.

RGB out is definitely better for a PC monitor, and most likely for a TV/Projector as well. Some other factors (like levels issues with other software) might however lead you to use YCB.

If you only use MPC-BE (or HC or similar)/LAV/MadVR, stick to RGB out.
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