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Old 22nd November 2020, 19:52   #60741  |  Link
el Filou
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If Alec246 is using a 1440p and playing back 2160p videos, then it should only use chroma upscaling then downscaling, and in that case it's better to lower the chroma upscaling quality a bit than choosing a lower quality downscaling.
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Originally Posted by brazen1 View Post
1000 nits, not 10,000. For example, my HDR device does 1500+ nits so passthrough is acceptable vs tone mapped imo.
Yeah but LordX2 is using a projector.
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Originally Posted by LordX2 View Post
So even though it isn't telling the projector it is HDR, it is still showing D3D11 10bit fullscreen windowed as the output. So it has the 'full' bit depth that it should natively.
Windows still shows output as SDR though when I check the display settings.
Anyway, when I FORCE select HDR10 on my projector - the picture comes alive... it looks GREAT. And I am down to 14ms frame timings since I am not doing all the HDR to SDR processing.
Have I found a 'loophole' for tone mapping? E.g. am I getting 'free' tone mapping through my projector? Or something similar?
"D3D11 10 bit fullscreen window" is just the type of output surface from madVR to the GPU, this doesn't indicate if it's SDR or HDR.
So if I understand correctly, you're saying that by outputting HDR as if it is SDR and then manually forcing the mode on your display, you don't have crushed blacks anymore?
As huhn said, if your projector is running in HDR mode it has to tonemap, it's just that the quality of its tonemapping is most probably of lesser quality than madVR's tonemap.
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Last edited by el Filou; 22nd November 2020 at 20:07.
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Old 22nd November 2020, 20:20   #60742  |  Link
Alec246
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brazen1 View Post
I don't know much about games but as a rule of thumb, 4k doesn't need to be image upscaled because it's already at the highest scale but it could benefit from chroma upscale. So, if you're running out of resources with a 4k video, lower luma. Once you do, you might even be able to raise chroma a bit. Fwiw, on the flip side luma becomes more important than chroma when using lesser resolution video you want upscaled to your native display resolution such as 2160p. I don't know much about 1440p and how gamers flip flop resolutions around though.

Sorry forgot to show you my Settings

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Old 22nd November 2020, 20:43   #60743  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by el Filou View Post
If Alec246 is using a 1440p and playing back 2160p videos, then it should only use chroma upscaling then downscaling, and in that case it's better to lower the chroma upscaling quality a bit than choosing a lower quality downscaling.
Yeah but LordX2 is using a projector."D3D11 10 bit fullscreen window" is just the type of output surface from madVR to the GPU, this doesn't indicate if it's SDR or HDR.
So if I understand correctly, you're saying that by outputting HDR as if it is SDR and then manually forcing the mode on your display, you don't have crushed blacks anymore?
As huhn said, if your projector is running in HDR mode it has to tonemap, it's just that the quality of its tonemapping is most probably of lesser quality than madVR's tonemap.
The experience with the crushed blacks still has me confused.

When the video was in Fullscreen windowed 10bit mode - the blacks are crushed - and I have to adjust my MadVR range output to 19 for the black instead of the normal 16 for limited.

However, if I alt-enter and make the video windowed, it switches to 8 bit windowed, and then shows all the black bars.

So the black crush is happening on Windowed Fullscreen 10 bit.

Does that help explain anything?

Also a question on MadVR tonemapping and HDR output. I remember Asmodian saying that he used MadVR to tonemap, but then output the video as HDR for his screen. Why would you do this? To take advantage of the full BT.2020 (or DCI-P3) color scheme?
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Old 22nd November 2020, 21:32   #60744  |  Link
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Don't use 10 bit.

I usually use passthrough but the reason to tone map HDR is to use madVR's tone mapping instead of my TV's. Both methods take advantage of the full color gamut but madVR's is customizable and potentially better.

If you use madVR's tone mapping but do not output HDR the display will stay in SDR mode, on a projector this is fine but with an OLED TV switching to HDR mode offers a much better HDR image.
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Last edited by Asmodian; 22nd November 2020 at 21:45.
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Old 22nd November 2020, 21:52   #60745  |  Link
huhn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brazen1 View Post
"MadVR shows that it is outputting in DCI-P3 (HDR 1000 nits BT.2020 -> DCI-P3) - why is this?"

1000 nits, not 10,000. For example, my HDR device does 1500+ nits so passthrough is acceptable vs tone mapped imo.

I think the -> DCI-P3 is referring to what the source was mastered in, not what it's outputting which is BT.2020.
a file reports the native gamut but is still BT 2020 just ignore it.
my line is more about how HDR works even a 1500 display is tonemapping even a 4000k display is tone mapping. so the question is not if something is tone mapped it is who is tone mapping. just send it the TV nothing wrong with a 1000k+ display.

it has nothing todo with colorspace nothing to do with levels.
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Old 22nd November 2020, 22:00   #60746  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Asmodian View Post
Don't use 10 bit.

I usually use passthrough but the reason to tone map HDR is to use madVR's tone mapping instead of my TV's. Both methods take advantage of the full color gamut but madVR's is customizable and potentially better.

If you use madVR's tone mapping but do not output HDR the display will stay in SDR mode, on a projector this is fine but with an OLED TV switching to HDR mode offers a much better HDR image.
I am watching HDR10 content - so wont it always be 10bit?

If I am watching HDR10 (BT.2020) content, on SDR (BT.709) how am I taking advantage of the full color gamut?

Man I hate being a noob! hahaha
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Old 22nd November 2020, 22:13   #60747  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by el Filou View Post
If Alec246 is using a 1440p and playing back 2160p videos, then it should only use chroma upscaling then downscaling, and in that case it's better to lower the chroma upscaling quality a bit than choosing a lower quality downscaling.
.
But how do I disable Image Upscaling? In the Image Upscaling Tab, there is Upscaling and Doubling. Choosing Doubling NGU is considered Upscaling? How do I disable it?

Chroma Upscalign should I try to keep NGU? And I'm trying SSIM 2d Downscale but I may have to go back to 1D
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Old 22nd November 2020, 22:18   #60748  |  Link
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as long as you are not setting it to supersample madVR will automatically not use it if upscaling is not needed.
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Old 22nd November 2020, 22:36   #60749  |  Link
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The upscaling settings are not used in your config, try Bicubic60 to downscale, I doubt that you can tell the difference.
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Old 22nd November 2020, 22:51   #60750  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LordX2 View Post
I am watching HDR10 content - so wont it always be 10bit?
Set your display to 8 bit, under devices->[display]->properties

madVR's dithering is very good, even ordered dithering which is very fast outputs great quality 8 bit video from HDR10 content. The high bit depth is important for the compressed source video (the compression does not preserve dithering) but not for the full bandwidth output of madVR.

I do prefer both the "use colored noise" and "change dither for every frame" disabled. I especially do not like "use colored noise".

Quote:
Originally Posted by LordX2 View Post
If I am watching HDR10 (BT.2020) content, on SDR (BT.709) how am I taking advantage of the full color gamut?
It is important to separate the concepts of HDR v.s. SDR from DCI-P3 v.s. BT.2020 v.s. BT.709 color gamuts. These are two independent concepts, though they are correlated in most consumer content. You can have SDR DCI-P3 or BT.2020 content and BT.709 HDR content.

Color gamut is exactly what color the primary colors are (Red, Green, Blue). They are a property of your display and you need to convert the source to be correct on your display. BT.709's max red is a less saturated red than DCI-P3's max red but with a good DCI-P3 to BT.709 conversion all but the most saturated colors will look the same.

HDR is a different and more dynamic way to do what was done by SDR's gamma value. This is to map the digital values to actual pixel brightness. Because humans see differences in dark shades much more significantly (our visual response is logarithmic) we change the brightness of the display a lot less between (16,16,16) and (17,17,17) than between (128,128,128) and (129,129,129). HDR allows this map to be dynamic because the display has more information about the content to be able to convert the brightness range of the master into the range the display can actually present.

The point is basically to be able to compress the very bright highlights, like point light sources, a lot while keeping the normal brightness range uncompressed so it doesn't look low contrast in most of the scene. This is assuming the brightness of the mastering display is higher than the consumer display but it is possible to use the HDR metadata to tone map to a brighter display as well.

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Man I hate being a noob! hahaha
Everyone was a noob at somepoint.

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Originally Posted by Alec246 View Post
Chroma Upscalign should I try to keep NGU? And I'm trying SSIM 2d Downscale but I may have to go back to 1D
Try enabling the trade quality for performance option "scale chroma separately, if it saves performance". In the right situation it can save a lot of performance, arguably without a quality hit (the output is slightly different but not necessarily lower quality).
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Last edited by Asmodian; 22nd November 2020 at 22:58.
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Old 22nd November 2020, 23:16   #60751  |  Link
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Hi all,

I just upgraded my GTX 1070 to the new RTX 3070. I've been using madVR for many years without any issue (SDR or HDR). My htpc is an i7 7700K, 16 gb ram, nvme drive for windows 10 up to date, latest Nvidia drivers, MPC-BE 64bits. My TV is an LG OLED C8.

I'm having this very strange issue with SDR content only. The motion is not good at all, it feels like I'm dropping frames but madVR OSD does not report any dropped frames( nor repeated frames).
What is strange is that in HDR10 passthrough, the playback is perfectly smooth. it only happens with sdr content, how's that possible ? Playback is also perfectly fluid using EVR mpc or VLC.
Anyone have an idea why? everything worked fine on my gtx1070.

I tried:
-reinstalling driver many times
- tried reinstalling madvr
-tried different version of madvr
-older driver ( there is only 2 drivers yet)
-mpc-hc = same issue
-gpu usage does not go over 50%
-happens with 2160p sdr content as well (no upscaling)
- i think its worse with NGU but i still notice it with jinc and spline.
- again, HDR passthrough, no issue at all...

osd of files playing:
* hdr passthrough give black screenshot but the osd is accurate




settings:



thanks for any help.

Last edited by imhh11; 22nd November 2020 at 23:26.
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Old 22nd November 2020, 23:35   #60752  |  Link
LordX2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Asmodian View Post
Set your display to 8 bit, under devices->[display]->properties

madVR's dithering is very good, even ordered dithering which is very fast outputs great quality 8 bit video from HDR10 content. The high bit depth is important for the compressed source video (the compression does not preserve dithering) but not for the full bandwidth output of madVR.

I do prefer both the "use colored noise" and "change dither for every frame" disabled. I especially do not like "use colored noise".
Thank for the explanation once again.

So if I am using the 12bit setting on the Nvidia output, and the full windowed D3D11 shows 10 bit - that would mean that I am NOT using dithering correct? Just straight up 10bit output?

I have seen through random web searches that people say 10bit can show more banding than 8bit w/ dithering. Is that correct? Or source dependent?

I am using my reference movie LUCY to see the differences that I select. So, with 12bit RBG, the movie shows 10bit D3D11 in full screen (which has proper blacks now, dont ask - I have no idea what I clicked!)... but when I go down to the movie timer scroll bar, and hover the mouse there, CTRL+J shows that the movie changes to 8bit windowed. I notice no difference between the switch.

That being said, should I stick with the 12bit setting? Thereby getting true 10bit fullscreen windowed?

Is there a good 4K HDR Banding TEST video I could use to see the difference between the modes?
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Old 23rd November 2020, 00:56   #60753  |  Link
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In order to take advantage of the 12bit setting, your display must actually support 10bit input and have an appropriate frc engine to deal with it.

Alot of displays just fake it even though they list it on the box. They'll write 10bit on the box, but then the display itself just discards the data and doesn't dither.


To test it, Set 10 or 12bit in Nvidia panel, set 10bit in Madvr , set a hotkey in madvr to Toggle madvr's dithering.

Play this test pattern. it must be full screen, mouse cursor not ontop of menu, and the surface must say D3D11 fullscreen windowed (10bit), Then toggle the dithering button on and off. With dithering Disabled, The top gradient should be much smoother than the bottom gradient. With dithering Enabled, The top gradient should change yet again, and become EVEN MORE smooth. If the top gradient looks very similar with big blotches like the bottom gradient in both cases, either the screen is not 10-bit, or is just crappy.

With the cursor on the bottom seekbar/buttons poped up, the application will switch to the 8bit mode. In this mode, with the dithering Disabled, the top gradient should look almost like the bottom gradient, blocky. With it enabled, the top should be smooth/smoother.

It's also possible that the display has 10bit processing, but this aspect is disabled in 444 chroma modes/ PC modes. You can run the test in different modes, but you must also disable the smooth gradient filter on the tv, otherwise that could fool you.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B68...UwTFdTNFE/view


The Gradient performance is a combination of many factors, and it may be difficult to tease out what's not right, but this should get you started.
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Old 23rd November 2020, 01:09   #60754  |  Link
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The video driver also dithers. I don't know about AMD, but Nvidia dithers everything except RGB full.
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Old 23rd November 2020, 01:23   #60755  |  Link
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I assumed we're testing rgb full. yes.
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Old 23rd November 2020, 01:46   #60756  |  Link
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I assumed we're testing rgb full. yes.
Yes, Nvidia is RGB Full 12bit - MadVr is Limited - PJ (display) is limited.

How can I set the key to toggle dithering?

And it is a projector - Sony VPL-VW285es

Last edited by LordX2; 23rd November 2020 at 01:54.
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Old 23rd November 2020, 01:50   #60757  |  Link
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in madvr setting, there's a hotkey menu.

Set the projector to 444 full rgb if possible. you may need to go to 23 or 24 or 30hz.
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Old 23rd November 2020, 01:53   #60758  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Asmodian View Post
It is important to separate the concepts of HDR v.s. SDR from DCI-P3 v.s. BT.2020 v.s. BT.709 color gamuts. These are two independent concepts, though they are correlated in most consumer content. You can have SDR DCI-P3 or BT.2020 content and BT.709 HDR content.

@ Asmodian, do you know how madvr works with the primaries during its Tonemapping ?

Does it apply a transfer function to retarget ?

For example, the container is rec2020, the primary reported by the video is rec2020, does madvr do gamut compression by bending the axis, OR does it just send out the vanilla values along an assumed straight line towards the primaries.


The thing that confuses me is that IF it doesn't bend the axis, then it MUST require a rec2020 lut no ? without which it would send colors towards the rec709 primaries or p3 primaries of the display device, and that'd just be wrong. red and blue might look pretty close, but the green and magenta would be pretty off.
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Old 23rd November 2020, 02:04   #60759  |  Link
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in madvr setting, there's a hotkey menu.

Set the projector to 444 full rgb if possible. you may need to go to 23 or 24 or 30hz.
The projector doesn't look right if it is set to FULL mode. Went through that rabbit hole a month ago with the guys here, and we landed at the optimal settings being: PC FULL, MadVR Limited, PJ Limited.

So I would like to do any testing with the settings I will be using on a daily basis.

Also, my system normally boots to 23.976 fps, and MadVR changes that refresh as needed.
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Old 23rd November 2020, 02:09   #60760  |  Link
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do you have a colorimeter

question 2, can you buy one ?
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