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18th October 2018, 17:41 | #701 | Link | |
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to describe the distortions, I think it's the best to show as a video. Depending where the window of VirtualDub is, the preview 'moves' and you can create that "winning solitair" effect (or crashing IE on windows95, you know...). Check the video: https://www.dropbox.com/s/ri897y11tf...aldub.mp4?dl=0 What me also wonder, when I start the recoding, the distortions stops and the preview is fine. No matter which position of VirtualDub. Yes, the Cropping windows is always fine. I can move around the window without issues. Yes, I use NVIDIA GTX 980 Ti with 416.34 |
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18th October 2018, 18:55 | #702 | Link |
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So maybe it is the same Nvidia issue and you can try older drivers?
The distortion looks really weird. You can also try display preferences (enable/disable "use directx" etc) to see if it has effect on this.
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19th October 2018, 17:12 | #703 | Link |
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I can confirm the reporting on sourceforge. I uninstalled the driver (Microsoft basic driver) and have Overlay Preview without issue. Also Preview (system) works fine.
I installed for testing 399.07 -> same issue like current driver I tried 388.31 -> no issues anymore Which display prefences do you mean? Nvidia settings? in VirtualDub? Windows? |
19th October 2018, 17:22 | #704 | Link |
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I meant VirtualDub preferences.
P.S. Although it is not an issue, I find it still confusing how capture preview modes are organized, after inspecting again: "Overlay" tries to render "videoPort" pin first, then "preview", then "capture" "Preview" only renders "capture" pin but in the middle there is also "Sample Grabber" I see no evidence that in either case any video overlay is expected. And the fact that "Preview" mode never connects to "preview" pin does not help to understand. So these are quite meaningless choices. Last edited by shekh; 19th October 2018 at 17:54. |
19th October 2018, 18:11 | #705 | Link |
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Okay, I played around a little in the setting.
Not matter which setting I change it doesn't effekt the Overlay, Preview (system). There is no preview. But it does effect the "Display with Filters" setting: uncheck "Use DirectX for display panes" fix the glitchy moving VirtualDub preview It is also fixed when Direct3D 9, or OpenGL or Direct3D 11 is checked. Any other optioncombination you would like to know? |
22nd October 2018, 03:47 | #708 | Link | ||
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@Shekh,
Sorry, but I'd appreciate further clarification on this: Quote:
Quote:
As it turns out, both Resolve (15.1.2) and Premiere Pro produce exactly the same results as VDub2 when the Checkers-444 (ProRes_4444) clip is 'pass through' exported to v210, giving the same pattern, as per the image in your first post: Whereas Resolve 15.1 behaves in the same way as Vegas Pro, giving the same pattern as the one in your second post: Which is also the same as the 'Checkers-422' clip (ProRes_HQ 10bit 422) that was exported from the original image created in Natron. So Natron must use the same sub-sampling modality too: What's confusing me is that when I use AVISynth+ to do the 444 > 422 conversion with 'bilinear' chroma-resampling and then encode to v210 with VDub2, the pattern of results is exactly the same as when the conversion is done in VDub2 (i.e. importing the original Checkers-444 clip). Code:
FFVideoSource("{Path}:\checkers-444.mov", fpsnum=25, fpsden=1, threads=1) Converttoyuv422(interlaced=false, chromaresample="bilinear") # which VDub2 decodes to p210 Had a look at the AVISynth 'Resampling' docs to see what I could glean, but I'm none the wiser: http://avisynth.nl/index.php/Resampl...-_downsampling Is this other 'summed area' modality a variant of Bilinear or something different altogether ? I've seen mention of a so called 'area averaging' method of sampling (as distinct from 'Bilinear') but only in the context of image scaling algorithms. https://superuser.com/questions/3757...ose-for-videos Could you point me to any references that explain, and ideally illustrate this more fully ? Edit: Here also, but again in relation to resolution scaling: http://www.enfocus.com/manuals/UserG...ml#c_aa1135518 FFMPEG also: https://ffmpeg.org/ffmpeg-scaler.htm...Scaler-Options But nothing I can find relating to 444 > 422 sub-sampling specifically.
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Nostalgia's not what it used to be Last edited by WorBry; 22nd October 2018 at 04:53. |
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22nd October 2018, 05:48 | #709 | Link |
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@WorBry - The vegas/natron/resolve15.1 histogram pattern in your screenshot looks very close to the "box" kernel using fmtc in vapoursynth
Code:
clip = core.lsmas.LibavSMASHSource(r'F:\checkers-444.mov') clip = core.fmtc.resample(clip, css="422", kernel="box") clip = core.fmtc.bitdepth(clip, bits=10, dmode=1) clip.set_output() https://www.mediafire.com/file/td58t...e%3D1.zip/file Not sure what the equivalent is in avisynth. I thought maybe avisynth dither tools (same author) could do it , but I can't get it to do it properly, it's csp for dither_resize16 only does 8bit formats like "YV16", not YUV422P10 Last edited by poisondeathray; 22nd October 2018 at 06:38. |
22nd October 2018, 06:47 | #710 | Link |
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I wondered about Box also, but it's not one of the chromaresample options given for AVISynth Convert and I'm not set up for VapourSynth.
Reassuring at least to find that Resolve now behaves in the same manner as Premiere Pro, as it makes for consistent 422 sampling outcomes on export from 444 and 422 inputs. I don't how, but that's the observation from these 'pass-through' tests.
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Nostalgia's not what it used to be Last edited by WorBry; 22nd October 2018 at 06:52. |
22nd October 2018, 06:50 | #711 | Link |
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Actually you can do it with avs+ using dither tools, if you use the stacked format
I think Firesledge (aka Cretindesalpes) retired from avisynth stuff before avs+ became more stable (where you can use native formats now), so you can use the hacked 8bit MSB/LSB stack format (which was used for higher bit depth formats when he was active) ; I don't think dither tools was updated for the native pixel formats Code:
LsmashVideoSource("checkers-444.mov", format="YUV444P10", stacked=true) Dither_resize16(1920,1080, kernel="box", csp="YV16") ConvertFromStacked(bits=10) Last edited by poisondeathray; 22nd October 2018 at 06:56. |
22nd October 2018, 10:52 | #713 | Link |
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Sorry for confusion, here is illustration
I did not write the original algorithm in VD, only filled missing parts to communicate with higher precision formats. Overall it is the same in 8-bit, I don't think you have to stick to high bit depth to experiment with resampling. By nature downsampling and upsampling are resizing of image applied to chroma planes. The differences are in small detail what filters are selected, subpixel offsets etc. It seems I used wrong terms in wrong places. All chroma resampling in VD is called "linear" and applied independently in with/height. Also there is "interpolation only". It seems Avisynth bilinear is exactly the same as VD "linear". The second picture ("sony") should be called "bilinear interpolation" (not same as "bilinear resampling"). Or is it plain averaging? This definition sounds correct: "Bilinear interpolation uses a 2x2 environment of a pixel and then takes the average of these pixels to interpolate the new value. It's not the best algorithm, but rather fast." = "sony". Bilinear resampling averages more pixels by applying weights which fall off in linear law. By coincidence, in this example 0.5, 1, 0.5 are exactly pixel areas if you draw a box around them. Thus you could call it "Area averaging" but it behaves differently with other scales.
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22nd October 2018, 22:01 | #714 | Link | |
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Thanks Shekh,
So if I understand correctly, your interpretation of the 'Sony Vegas' (Resolve 15.1, Natron) Checkers-444 > v210 pattern holds - "blends max 2 neighbor pixels as opposed to summed area" - and that is what the lower diagram illustrates: That also fits with a definition of Bilinear Interpolation - "....uses a 2x2 environment of a pixel and then takes the average of these pixels to interpolate the new value. It's not the best algorithm, but rather fast." Did that definition come from Sony btw ? The other pattern observed with VDub2 represents Bilinear Resampling where "each pixel convolved with kernel 0.25, 0.5, 0.25" (corresponding to the top diagram), which is consistent with the 444 > 422 results obtained with AVISynth using the 'Bilinear' re-sampler, along with Resolve 15.1.2 and Premiere Pro. @PDR. Many thanks also. I think you've clinched it. Quote:
Code:
LsmashVideoSource("checkers-444.mov", format="YUV444P10", stacked=true) Dither_resize16(1920,1080, kernel="box", csp="YV16") ConvertFromStacked(bits=10) I also compared the AVISynth 'Box Kernel' v210 vs Resolve 15.1 v210 export with quality metrics and the SSIM and PSNR scores are not too shabby either: That's the one - it's 'Box Kernel' resampling. So does that tally with '"blends max 2 neighbor pixels as opposed to summed area" ? If so I think we can marked this up as "solved". Edit: I'm also able to replicate the behavior observed when the Checkers-422 clip is 'pass-through' exported to v210 in Resolve 15.1 Code:
LSMASHVideoSource("{Path}:\checkers-422.mov", format="YUV422P10", stacked=true) Dither_resize16(1920,1080, kernel="bilinear", csp="YV24") Dither_resize16(1920,1080, kernel="box", csp="YV16") ConvertFromStacked(bits=10) Which confirms Bilinear up-sampling to 444 on import and Box sub-sampling to 422 on export. It was that behavior which sparked this study in the first place as it was deemed to reflect sub-optimal 422 chroma sub-sampling.
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Nostalgia's not what it used to be Last edited by WorBry; 23rd October 2018 at 06:03. |
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22nd October 2018, 22:31 | #715 | Link |
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@WorBry
Yes, you understood me right. "Did that definition come from Sony btw" - it is from answers from stackexchange link you gave above, from explanation of ffdshow filters. When just 2 pixels are averaged there is not enough information to guess original intent. Both the results can be from box filter but with different chroma location.
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23rd October 2018, 02:06 | #716 | Link | |
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Quote:
Thanks again.
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7th November 2018, 08:44 | #718 | Link | |
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Quote:
For some reason vsync is enabled in capture preview, disabled otherwise. Turns out this is bug in code, not hardware/drivers related.
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16th November 2018, 17:20 | #719 | Link |
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Reporting a few bugs.
In capture mode, the video levels window can be opened infinite instance instead of just one. And when I changed the exposure value in the levels setting and start capturing, the exposure value was reset back to the previous value from the "capture filter" instead. Also, when capture is running, clicking "file->exit capture mode" did not work. |
19th November 2018, 22:07 | #720 | Link | |
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Because with the recent version, no matter what I try, I don't get a preview image at all anymore, not even the distorted "Display with Filters" works. I tried all the tricks with disable audio record and back, but no luck. Only the Cropping window shows a preview, which is sadly usless for me. Revert back to 42699 works and I get my preview. So currently I will keep the older version for capturing avi. What's also weird, when "Display with Filters" is enabled in current version, moving the VirtualDub2 window around is choppy (like 30fps). When Overlay, the window moves smoothly with my 60Hz monitor refresh rate. The 42699 does not show that issue. It shows the distorted preview (which is always fixed, when starting capturing), but the VirtualDub2 windows moves with 60Hz. |
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