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Old 16th December 2020, 23:20   #30261  |  Link
jdobbs
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharc View Post
I made a test with my 1050ti. The result is not nearly as good as what you got with your 1660.
I aligned for same PSNR as a reference, using the commandline from BD-RB.

x264:
CRF=22 PSNR=44.81dB SSIM=83.00824601 filesize=3'307'459k 1.000

NVEncC:
CQM=25 PSNR=44.82dB SSIM=82.53126698 filesize=4'561'774k 1.379


For same PSNR the video filesize for NVEnc was 38% higher than for x264. For same SSIM it would be even more.
No borders in my test movie, but I don't think that this matters much. The big difference seems to be the HW.
Interesting. I wonder what has changed that could make that much difference?

Maybe that specific source? My scores were the averages across several discs. But, I don't think any of the individual scores that were used were that far off the average.
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Last edited by jdobbs; 16th December 2020 at 23:31.
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Old 17th December 2020, 11:01   #30262  |  Link
cartman0208
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In this Wiki article 15% bitrate savings are mentioned, so yes, it must be the HW ... it does not explain 38% difference though ...
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Old 17th December 2020, 11:36   #30263  |  Link
Sharc
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@jdobbs, cartman0208:
It seems that the discrepancy is partially attributed to the GOP size.
For the tests I set the vKeyint in the alternate.txt to 48, and the x264 encoded accordingly.
Apparently the --bluray in the NVEncC commandline forced a shorter GOP of 30 which seems to have penalized the NVEncC.
Encoding at same GOP of 24 (default) the difference of the filesize between x264 and NVEncC for similar PSNR (or SSIM) becomes less: about 25..30% rather than the 38% as before.

Last edited by Sharc; 18th December 2020 at 13:34.
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Old 19th December 2020, 14:39   #30264  |  Link
Sharc
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdobbs View Post
Interesting. I wonder what has changed that could make that much difference?

Maybe that specific source? My scores were the averages across several discs. But, I don't think any of the individual scores that were used were that far off the average.
The +38% filesize for NVEncC can be attributed do different GOP sizes, which was 48 for x264 (my mistake, '--bluray-compat' does not overrule it). It was however forced to 30 by '--bluray' for NVEncC which penalized NVEncC.
Redoing the test for GOP 24 (blu-ray compliant, BD-RB default) reduced the filesize difference to 20 ....30%.
Adding --lookahead 24 to the NVEncC commandline brought another improvement for NVEncC, so eventually I ended up with about 12% ... 16% file size penalty for NVEncC for 'equal' PSNR/SSIM in my tests.

Example (for my 1050ti):
x264 CRF=22.0, PSNR=44.82dB, SSIM=82.803, filesize=100% (reference filesize)
NVEncC CQM=25.8, PSNR=44.95dB, SSIM=82.613, filesize=126%
NVEncC CQM=25.5, PSNR=44.97dB, SSIM=82.756, filesize=115%, with '--lookahead 24' added to the NVEncC commandline.
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Old 19th December 2020, 16:49   #30265  |  Link
jdobbs
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Has anyone had any luck using the NVENCC command line options for iVTC? In BD Rebuilder, I currently force AVS input when doing iVTC (which means the encode is roughly the same speed as X264). I thought I'd try using the vpp options in NVENCC and see how well they work. When I try "--vpp-decimate cycle=5" for encoding on a source that uses the duplicated frame method -- I get a terrible jumpiness (compared to an AVS using tivtc, for example). VPP doesn't seem to find the duplicated frame very well at all.
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Old 19th December 2020, 17:17   #30266  |  Link
Sharc
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdobbs View Post
When I try "--vpp-decimate cycle=5" for encoding on a source that uses the duplicated frame method -- I get a terrible jumpiness (compared to an AVS using tivtc, for example). VPP doesn't seem to find the duplicated frame very well at all.
Should it be cycle=6 perhaps for 30/25 conversion?
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Old 19th December 2020, 18:15   #30267  |  Link
jdobbs
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Originally Posted by Sharc View Post
Should it be cycle=6 perhaps for 30/25 conversion?
If trying to convert from NTSC to PAL, yes. These are sources that were originally FILM (virtually everything falls into that category) that were converted to NTSC for broadcast. Many TV shows (especially older ones) were originally shot at 24fps and then telecined. I'm trying to get them back to FILM format.
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Last edited by jdobbs; 19th December 2020 at 18:19.
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Old 19th December 2020, 22:51   #30268  |  Link
Sharc
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdobbs View Post
If trying to convert from NTSC to PAL, yes. These are sources that were originally FILM (virtually everything falls into that category) that were converted to NTSC for broadcast. Many TV shows (especially older ones) were originally shot at 24fps and then telecined. I'm trying to get them back to FILM format.
If it is telecined film, the IVTC involves 2 steps AFAIK:
a) field matching -> restores the progressive film frames
b) decimation -> removes the duplicates
In avisynth it is
Code:
TFM()
TDecimate()
I understand that the '--vpp-decimate' can only do step b).
I didn't try though, it's just my interpretation.

Edit:
Oh, there seems to be an IVTC method which does not require field matching:
https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=176657

Last edited by Sharc; 20th December 2020 at 09:46.
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Old 23rd December 2020, 00:30   #30269  |  Link
Mike-uk
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MKV import it creates a pseudo disc ?? it also converts .mkv to .m2ts without re encoding ?? does this mean i can burn the pseudo to a disc and it will play without spending the time to re encode it first ???
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Old 23rd December 2020, 10:11   #30270  |  Link
Sharc
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Originally Posted by Mike-uk View Post
MKV import it creates a pseudo disc ?? it also converts .mkv to .m2ts without re encoding ?? does this mean i can burn the pseudo to a disc and it will play without spending the time to re encode it first ???
BD-RB extracts the streams from the imported .mkv and creates an intermediate blu-ray file structure in the IMPORTS folder.
If the size fits to a disc you can directly burn this pseudo structure of the IMPORTS folder to a disc without re-encoding, and if you are lucky it's even compliant - depending on the streams in the .mkv source. However, to ensure that the final result is fully blu-ray compliant (size and format wise) a subsequent re-encoding step is normally required which involves much more (i.e. re-encoding the streams as necessary) than just packing everything into an .m2ts container.

Last edited by Sharc; 23rd December 2020 at 10:13.
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Old 23rd December 2020, 15:48   #30271  |  Link
Mike-uk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharc View Post
BD-RB extracts the streams from the imported .mkv and creates an intermediate blu-ray file structure in the IMPORTS folder.
If the size fits to a disc you can directly burn this pseudo structure of the IMPORTS folder to a disc without re-encoding, and if you are lucky it's even compliant - depending on the streams in the .mkv source. However, to ensure that the final result is fully blu-ray compliant (size and format wise) a subsequent re-encoding step is normally required which involves much more (i.e. re-encoding the streams as necessary) than just packing everything into an .m2ts container.
ok great cheers thats explains and answeres my queastion
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Old 24th December 2020, 00:38   #30272  |  Link
laserfan
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As we approach the twelfth anniversary of this thread and the "beta" of BD-RB, I would like to extend my best wishes to jdobbs & family for a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year!

I think the first movie I tried w/BD-RB might have been Live Free or Die Hard and even though the conversion was at a measly 3.5KBps or something bitrate, it turned-out awesome and looks great to this day. Of course, in 2008 this was big stuff as we were sorta feeling our way around in those days. But I digress... see you in the New Year.
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Old 24th December 2020, 12:13   #30273  |  Link
Sharc
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Wow ...... it's even incredible 16 years including DVD-Rebuilder, more than 20'000 posts and countless working hours.
Thank you jdobbs, Merry x-mas and a Happy and Healthy 2021.
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Old 24th December 2020, 15:32   #30274  |  Link
Mike-uk
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Hope you have a good holidays Jdobbs, and thanks again for all you hard work on BD-Rebuilder , and to all the other people on here that have helped
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Old 24th December 2020, 16:17   #30275  |  Link
jdobbs
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Thanks everyone. I hope you all have a happy holiday season.
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Old 31st December 2020, 23:49   #30276  |  Link
Mike-uk
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hmm ok did and encode to bd25 with Nvencc used setting highest (very slow), i see from lastcmd.txt it is using --vbr why are we not using --vbrhq which then also enables multipass ?? also lookahead is not enabled ??

--codec h264 --preset quality --bluray --qp-min 0 --vbr 17504 --aq-temporal --keyfile "G:\BD REBUILDER\WORKFILES\VID_00351.CHP" --sar 1:1 --aud --pic-struct --vbv-bufsize 30000 --max-bitrate 35000 --gop-len 24 -o


yet setting "high quality (default)" has --multipass 2pass full enabled

--codec h264 --preset default --bluray --qp-min 0 --multipass 2pass-full --vbr 17504 --aq-temporal --keyfile "G:\BD REBUILDER\WORKFILES\VID_00351.CHP" --sar 1:1 --aud --pic-struct --vbv-bufsize 30000 --max-bitrate 35000 --gop-len 24 -o

Last edited by Mike-uk; 1st January 2021 at 00:06.
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Old 1st January 2021, 00:02   #30277  |  Link
jdobbs
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Originally Posted by Mike-uk View Post
hmm ok did and encode to bd25 with Nvencc used setting highest, i see from lastcmd.txt it is using --vbr why are we not using --vbrhq which then also enables multipass ?? also lookahead is not enabled ??

--codec h264 --preset quality --bluray --qp-min 0 --vbr 17504 --aq-temporal --keyfile "G:\BD REBUILDER\WORKFILES\VID_00351.CHP" --sar 1:1 --aud --pic-struct --vbv-bufsize 30000 --max-bitrate 35000 --gop-len 24 -o


yet setting "high" has --multipass 2pass full enabled

--codec h264 --preset default --bluray --qp-min 0 --multipass 2pass-full --vbr 17504 --aq-temporal --keyfile "G:\BD REBUILDER\WORKFILES\VID_00351.CHP" --sar 1:1 --aud --pic-struct --vbv-bufsize 30000 --max-bitrate 35000 --gop-len 24 -o
In my tests it slows the encode down... but doesn't improve the picture quality (per SSIM evaluation). In fact, the SSIM value slightly worsened when it was set (for that particular circumstance [--preset quality], not all settings).

All of the BD-RB settings are based on actual testing and output results -- not "what it should do".
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Last edited by jdobbs; 1st January 2021 at 00:12.
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Old 1st January 2021, 00:09   #30278  |  Link
Mike-uk
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ah ok cool if youve tested with multipass and no difference then thats all good
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Old 4th January 2021, 19:22   #30279  |  Link
lithiumus
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hey JD, I'm using the Edit and blanking feature to remove various screens for Full BD / UHD backup (no re-encode) but the smaller ones around 1Mb or smaller do not show up for blanking. Is there any way to get all the M2TS files to show up so I can choose to blank them?
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Old 5th January 2021, 22:13   #30280  |  Link
jdobbs
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Originally Posted by lithiumus View Post
hey JD, I'm using the Edit and blanking feature to remove various screens for Full BD / UHD backup (no re-encode) but the smaller ones around 1Mb or smaller do not show up for blanking. Is there any way to get all the M2TS files to show up so I can choose to blank them?
Have you set the following two options?

MIN_M2TS_SIZE=0
MIN_PLAYLIST_MINS=0
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