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Old 9th November 2015, 06:17   #34161  |  Link
MistahBonzai
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FYI AMD users. I recall at least one report of queues failing to fill in 'fullscreen exclusive mode' while working fine in windowed mode. While chasing such an issue I made the following discovery the hard way.

If you have set the CCC->Performance-Frame Rate to your display refresh rate (or there abouts) in an effort to reduce power consumption be aware that you have capped the frame rate. Therefore 'fullscreen exclusive mode' can't catch-up when the 'render queue' empties however it continues to work just fine in fullscreen window mode.
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Old 9th November 2015, 07:59   #34162  |  Link
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Is there a whitepaper on how the NNEDI3 algorithm roughly works? I'm not sure how to quantify the difference in quality between NNEDI3 32 and NNEDI3 16 on both chroma upscaling and luma doubling, but I can definitely hear/see a difference in the fan speed and utilization of the GTX 670 going from 1280x720 -> 2560x1440

Also, why is the image upscaling algorithm used for chroma upscaling in addition to the selected chroma upscaling algorithm in some instances? Two "chroma > ..." entries are shown in the OSD. I thought that the chroma upscaling algorithm would be used alone or in conjunction with a selected chroma doubling/quadrupling algorithm, if needed.

Last edited by dansrfe; 9th November 2015 at 09:17.
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Old 9th November 2015, 08:41   #34163  |  Link
FreeFall
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madshi,

Quote:
Are you using the current official LAV version, or a newer nightly build? Newer nightly builds now send the subtitles to madVR instead of burning them into the decoded image. This has the advantage of madVR getting full control over the subtitle drawing and positioning.

When using a newer nightly LAV build, madVR should be able to move the subtitles either into the black bars or into the active video area. However, these are bitmap subtitles, which means that for optimal quality madVR has to draw them onto the decoded video image before doing any scaling, because only this way the subtitles will get the full quality benefit of the scaling algorithm you've selected. Having to draw the subs before scaling means that if you tell madVR to actually crop the black bars away, there's no black bars left for madVR to draw the subtitles into. So if you want the subs to be drawn into the black bars, you have to deactivate the option "crop black bars" in the zoom control settings. (Please note that this only applies to bitmap subtitles.)
Sorry about the confusion, I'm using the latest nightly LAV build 0.66.0-33. I have re-tested using madVR 0.89.16 and MPC-HC nightly build 1.7.9.202. and everything is working fine using this setup.

Zoom Player 11.1 beta2 Max behaves strangely for some reason with the new test DVD, set to use the default AR, derived (recommended).
https://www.dropbox.com/s/6ifrmre5xl...tdisc.zip?dl=0

Zoom Control Settings: (these are the only options I have enabled)

move subtitles, to bottom of the screen / window.
automatically detect hard coded black bars.
notify media player about cropped black bars, no more than once every 2 sec.
keep black bars visible if they contain subtitles, forever.

Here is the result.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ij9asv9tqa...zoom1.jpg?dl=0

If I disable the option notify media player about cropped black bars it works as expected, showing the subtitles rendered into the black bars.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/84h1atoxsd...zoom2.jpg?dl=0

Is Zoom Player causing the problem?

Last edited by FreeFall; 9th November 2015 at 08:45.
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Old 9th November 2015, 11:35   #34164  |  Link
mcn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Hmmm... And both embedded and external ones are SRT? Can you maybe make a small sample of that video available to me, with the external subtitle file? (You can use PM for that.)
While I was preparing your sample file I noticed something interesting.

Apparently the issue is related to tags like <i>...</i>.
This happens also with <b> and <u>.
The tags have the desired effect, the text is visually modified as it should.

However when encountering the first line with a tag the subtitles are not shown anymore in the bottom black bar but on the active video area.

Hence if the .srt starts with a line that has tags all the subs are shown in the active video area.

If the line with tags is in the middle then the subtitles are displayed in the bottom black bar until said line is encountered.
Then the subtitles begin to be shown in the active video area.
After this happens if I go back with the video the subtitles that were previously correctly shown are now displayed in the active video area too.

At this point I think you can easily reproduce this behaviour yourself.
If not I will upload the sample.

Thanks for your time!
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Old 9th November 2015, 14:25   #34165  |  Link
Thunderbolt8
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I still have stuttering in windowed mode with my mobile nvidia card. no such problems on my AMD laptop though. does anyone know the reason for that?
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Old 9th November 2015, 14:36   #34166  |  Link
videonerd
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Quote:
Originally Posted by krille View Post
Would it be possible to ad gpu and maybe cpu load to the madvr stats window?
I second this feature request! Thank you!
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Old 9th November 2015, 15:47   #34167  |  Link
XRyche
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MistahBonzai View Post
FYI AMD users. I recall at least one report of queues failing to fill in 'fullscreen exclusive mode' while working fine in windowed mode. While chasing such an issue I made the following discovery the hard way.

If you have set the CCC->Performance-Frame Rate to your display refresh rate (or there abouts) in an effort to reduce power consumption be aware that you have capped the frame rate. Therefore 'fullscreen exclusive mode' can't catch-up when the 'render queue' empties however it continues to work just fine in fullscreen window mode.
Excellent find. Thanks, this definitely corrected my queue fill issue.
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Old 9th November 2015, 16:18   #34168  |  Link
kasper93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by krille View Post
Would it be possible to ad gpu and maybe cpu load to the madvr stats window?
madVR is not a system monitoring tool...
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Old 9th November 2015, 16:25   #34169  |  Link
leeperry
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
In the next build SuperRes will always only be applied once, because it simply doesn't make sense any other way. SuperRes has no benefit from being applied multiple times.
I'd swear I prefered having it applied after every 2X step before

Will run more tests but with sxbr25/50 I find the picture less sharp/appealing now, much like having it applied only once at the end in older builds and the new options don't make up for the PQ decrease as far as I can see =(

I guess you expect us to crank up sharpness in sxbr or the new features when I seemingly prefered having SR applied several times in a row, any chance for a dirty hack to have it applied after every 2X step just like before please? something like a "2X step SuperRes" directory in mVR's folder would work if any possible please.


Last edited by leeperry; 9th November 2015 at 16:32.
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Old 9th November 2015, 19:21   #34170  |  Link
dimitrik
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10-bit display on nvidia GTX 970

Sorry to digress, but I would really appreciate some advice on this.

I'm thinking of getting a GTX 970 for my HTPC (currently with a Radeon 7850).

I hope to get improved nnedi3 performance from my 7850 (currently getting 32 neurons on doubling but cannot do quadrupling) and I would also like to output 10-bit color as I have a 10-bit capable TV.

I can do this today with my AMD card but I've read some dubious comments about nvidia's 10-bit output.

Can anyone advise me, or better yet does anyone do this today?

Thanks a lot!
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Old 9th November 2015, 20:01   #34171  |  Link
AngelGraves13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thunderbolt8 View Post
I still have stuttering in windowed mode with my mobile nvidia card. no such problems on my AMD laptop though. does anyone know the reason for that?
Have you limited your frames to render ahead to 1 in the control panel?
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Old 9th November 2015, 21:34   #34172  |  Link
iSeries
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Quick question regarding MadVR's gamma processing. My TV has 3 gamma modes, 1.8, 2.2 & 2.4. I've used 2.2 and find shadows too bright, however 2.4 is somewhat odd because it comes out of black just as quickly as 2.2 but is much darker overall. I've found a pleasant compromise with setting the TV to the default 2.2, and setting MadVR to apply a gamma change to 2.35. Nothing is clipped and it comes out of black slowly as it should. Is there any drawback to doing this, quality-wise?
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Old 9th November 2015, 22:11   #34173  |  Link
Warner306
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dansrfe View Post
Is there a whitepaper on how the NNEDI3 algorithm roughly works? I'm not sure how to quantify the difference in quality between NNEDI3 32 and NNEDI3 16 on both chroma upscaling and luma doubling, but I can definitely hear/see a difference in the fan speed and utilization of the GTX 670 going from 1280x720 -> 2560x1440

Also, why is the image upscaling algorithm used for chroma upscaling in addition to the selected chroma upscaling algorithm in some instances? Two "chroma > ..." entries are shown in the OSD. I thought that the chroma upscaling algorithm would be used alone or in conjunction with a selected chroma doubling/quadrupling algorithm, if needed.
The chroma layer must first be upscaled to match the luma resolution. This is due to chroma subsampling.

After upscaling the subsampled chroma, the luma and chroma are resized together to match the target resolution. This is image upscaling. Image doubling such as NNEDI3 double the luma and chroma separately, which is why you end up with two entries for the chroma channel: one to account for chroma subsampling, and one to account for image upscaling.

Last edited by Warner306; 9th November 2015 at 22:15.
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Old 9th November 2015, 22:59   #34174  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dimitrik View Post
Sorry to digress, but I would really appreciate some advice on this.

I'm thinking of getting a GTX 970 for my HTPC (currently with a Radeon 7850).

I hope to get improved nnedi3 performance from my 7850 (currently getting 32 neurons on doubling but cannot do quadrupling) and I would also like to output 10-bit color as I have a 10-bit capable TV.

I can do this today with my AMD card but I've read some dubious comments about nvidia's 10-bit output.

Can anyone advise me, or better yet does anyone do this today?

Thanks a lot!

I do 10 bit output madVR + 12 bit output Nvidia CP -> Sony 10 bit capable TV. Everything works with 0 problems!

My OCed GTX 970 can do Nnedi3 64 neurons doubling & quadrupling + ED2 + sharpen edges 0.2 + enhance detail 0.5 = SD -> 1080P = 18 ms render time.
= 720P -> 1080P = 21 ms render time.

Good choice on the GPU (GTX 970 is almost silent + low power usage), hope the upgrade goes well!
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Old 9th November 2015, 23:08   #34175  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Warner306 View Post
I think I have settled on the following settings for 1080p -> 1080p content using image enhancements:

Sharpen Edges (0.2)
Enhance Detail (0.5)

These settings result in small but noticeable enhancement. Sharpen Edges leads to less noticeable edge enhancement than Crispen Edges due to its thicker lines, which better blend into the background. However, Sharpen Edges is far too expensive for my system, so I will wait for an updated version.
Same here, looks great!!! (replaced SuperRes -> Sharpen Edges + Enhance Detail)
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Old 10th November 2015, 01:05   #34176  |  Link
Warner306
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Originally Posted by onyx76 View Post
Same here, looks great!!! (replaced SuperRes -> Sharpen Edges + Enhance Detail)
You think this combination is better than SuperRes? I haven't tried it with upscaled sources.
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Old 10th November 2015, 02:30   #34177  |  Link
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Be warned, the new image enhancement is taking a toll on SVP. I have to sacrifice Sharpen & Thin edges. Frame rendering is still low at 14ms. But you could see frame dropping like a stop watch. Turning those 2 off solves it.
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Last edited by Magik Mark; 10th November 2015 at 04:17.
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Old 10th November 2015, 06:53   #34178  |  Link
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the 4 new refinements are working wonderfully here. There is little to no impact on performance with my R9 270X. All content I watch pushes the GPU to it's limits (except 1080p24) and enabling all 4 refinements still fit in without any sacrifices. So far I have only left the 4 at the default setting of 1 and I am very pleased with the results. Everything looks fantastic, crisp (but not artificially so) and clean.

Here is my settings if anyone is curious:

Target Window = 1024x768 (rectangular pixels) @ 72Hz
Content 720p24:
Artifact Removal = med/high
Image Enhancements = ALL OFF
Zoom Control = ALL OFF
Image Downscaling = Catmull-Rom AR LL
Image Upscaling = Jinc AR (Not used)
Upscaling Refinement = sharpen, crispen, thin and enhance all set to 1 AND SuperRes set to 4 with LL
Chroma Upscaling = NNEDI3 64
Image Doubling = always double luma NNEDI3 128 AND always double chroma NNEDI3 64
Dithering = Ordered Dithering with colored noise checked and change dither unchecked

Keep up the awesome work madshi, I love what madVR can do. And I will be front of the line when you start accepting donations.

QB
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Old 10th November 2015, 07:41   #34179  |  Link
Warner306
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Originally Posted by QBhd View Post
the 4 new refinements are working wonderfully here. There is little to no impact on performance with my R9 270X. All content I watch pushes the GPU to it's limits (except 1080p24) and enabling all 4 refinements still fit in without any sacrifices. So far I have only left the 4 at the default setting of 1 and I am very pleased with the results. Everything looks fantastic, crisp (but not artificially so) and clean.

Here is my settings if anyone is curious:

Target Window = 1024x768 (rectangular pixels) @ 72Hz
Content 720p24:
Artifact Removal = med/high
Image Enhancements = ALL OFF
Zoom Control = ALL OFF
Image Downscaling = Catmull-Rom AR LL
Image Upscaling = Jinc AR (Not used)
Upscaling Refinement = sharpen, crispen, thin and enhance all set to 1 AND SuperRes set to 4 with LL
Chroma Upscaling = NNEDI3 64
Image Doubling = always double luma NNEDI3 128 AND always double chroma NNEDI3 64
Dithering = Ordered Dithering with colored noise checked and change dither unchecked

Keep up the awesome work madshi, I love what madVR can do. And I will be front of the line when you start accepting donations.

QB
I don't think all of the sharpeners are designed to work together at the same time. You would save a lot of performance by turning some of them off.
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Old 10th November 2015, 09:26   #34180  |  Link
ryrynz
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Originally Posted by Warner306 View Post
I don't think all of the sharpeners are designed to work together at the same time. You would save a lot of performance by turning some of them off.
Everything has it's own niche and will work together fine. In some cases it may be better to scale one up rather than have another enabled.. but then someone enabling all of these likely has compared the image quality with things on and off anyway. If you have the performance available might as well use it, I can't imagine someone would just tick things and set values haphazardly.
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