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Old 10th December 2016, 14:45   #41341  |  Link
oddball
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I'm having a couple of issues with fast forwarding/rewinding on my bluray remuxes. The screen flickers on and off for a while and I get screen corruption until it seems to catch up on itself. No such issues with encodes. The other issue I have is if I put 1080p23 or 1080p24 in my OLED TV's display modes only half the video displays on the TV. I have to leave out those entries for MadVR to play them back correctly in fullscreen exclusive mode on the TV.

Any ideas?
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Old 10th December 2016, 14:49   #41342  |  Link
huhn
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Originally Posted by StinDaWg View Post
OK. I see a slight difference in sharpness/clarity with the red triangles between bilateral and super XBR 150. Less so with bicubic 60AR. If that's all I'm missing by using a faster algorithm, I'm fine with that. There's no way I could see that in motion anyways.
well on my screen the difference between bilateral and super XBR 150 is is way bigger than luma FHD -> UHD scaling with bilinear or NGU at least on that source.
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Old 10th December 2016, 15:16   #41343  |  Link
StinDaWg
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Originally Posted by huhn View Post
well on my screen the difference between bilateral and super XBR 150 is is way bigger than luma FHD -> UHD scaling with bilinear or NGU at least on that source.
Ya, it's noticeable, but I wouldn't use bilinear anyways.
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Old 10th December 2016, 15:24   #41344  |  Link
ashlar42
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Originally Posted by Neo-XP View Post
Ys, be careful with Bilateral, it can give you the best, but also the worst results depending on the situation.e

Super-xbr is much more polyvalent, with values of 100-150.
I use NGU-Med at the moment (or NGU-High on new versions), because it is overall sharper and cleaner... and it is cold now where I live

Example with BilateralSharp / Bicubic60 AR / super-xbr150 / NGU-Low / NGU-Med / NGU-High :



I zoom for you in the right spot :



Now I let you decide which one to use.
I don't understand why you guys go to such great length to provide comparisons shot and don't include the original. How is one supposed to judge anything like this?
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Old 10th December 2016, 15:26   #41345  |  Link
huhn
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well because it is not so easy to share a 4:2:0 screen.
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Old 10th December 2016, 15:34   #41346  |  Link
Neo-XP
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Originally Posted by ashlar42 View Post
I don't understand why you guys go to such great length to provide comparisons shot and don't include the original. How is one supposed to judge anything like this?
Here is the same frame saved by MPC before processing :



It is from a movie, so I hope this is what you want. If not, tell me how to extract it

Or just pick the one which looks more natural or which you like the best based on... anything you want. You decide (but don't pick Bilateral ! ).

Last edited by Neo-XP; 10th December 2016 at 16:07.
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Old 10th December 2016, 15:35   #41347  |  Link
ashlar42
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well because it is not so easy to share a 4:2:0 screen.
It might be, but without the original picture I still don't understand what you are evaluating. The upscaled picture you like the most based on...? What?
I'm not trolling here, I'm just genuinely curious.
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Old 10th December 2016, 15:58   #41348  |  Link
huhn
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well i'm not saying you are trolling at all.

it is just adding a 4:2:0 picture is a quite some work.

i usually add the source image when i'm doing image scaling comparison it is simply to much work for chroma scaling. i mean getting the except frame and encode it lossless with for example x264 is not something every person can do.
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Old 10th December 2016, 16:32   #41349  |  Link
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i would really love to see a compare with Intels Hardware Adaptive Lanczos 4 tap (Intel HD) but it's not easy todo at all.
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Last edited by CruNcher; 10th December 2016 at 16:35.
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Old 10th December 2016, 18:01   #41350  |  Link
huhn
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why? just select DXVA scaling and use an intel iGPU.

it is more like lanczos 3 AR with banding thanks to low bit deep math.
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Old 10th December 2016, 18:11   #41351  |  Link
Knight77
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Hi guys, just some quick questions:

1) in this page... what did you select?

Quote:
I understood that someone is suggesting to use specific settings (not letting the application decide) and change the power management mode. Is it necessary?

BTW I do not have a mobile, I've got a desktop with a GTX1070.

2) About diethering: 10bit 4K TV, GTX1070 running things, I should pick Ordered Diethering without "use colored noise"....right? I'm a bit confused because I was sure that the best quality settings was ED1 but then in the last pages of the thread I read that OD is like the best choice for my set-up.

3) Image downscaling: am I wrong or it's like I'll never use it? I mean I upscale 720p or 1080p to the 4K and I'll never watch anything over 4K....

Thanks
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Old 10th December 2016, 18:32   #41352  |  Link
JarrettH
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StinDaWg View Post
NGU doubling is really impressive with 720p animation @ 1080p. After playing back an episode of Family Guy in 720p and then 1080p version, it was hard to tell the difference. It's easy to tell the difference with Jinc and NNEDI3, 720p version looks blurry. Switch to NGU and bam, back in focus. The only thing that stands out is aliasing on some diagonal lines with NGU, otherwise they look almost identical.


I'm not stopping anyone from doing anything. The differences to me are not noticeable in 99% of real world circumstances. All these comparisons of red text are not applicable to what you see watching in the majority of a video. I still haven't come across anything where I paused a video, changed chroma, then saw any difference at all. With cartoons, movies, sports or anything else.

But, if the only way to tell the difference is with these extreme fringe examples, then more power to them. That will be my last comment on the matter. It really doesn't matter to me what other people use. I'm just glad something like madVR exists for us videophiles.
And I don't watch cartoons apart from the odd Family Guy. I get what you mean. I've noticed a lot of examples on this board aren't real life content.
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Old 10th December 2016, 19:01   #41353  |  Link
Asmodian
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Originally Posted by Knight77 View Post
2) About diethering: 10bit 4K TV, GTX1070 running things, I should pick Ordered Diethering without "use colored noise"....right? I'm a bit confused because I was sure that the best quality settings was ED1 but then in the last pages of the thread I read that OD is like the best choice for my set-up.
ED1 is higher quality than ordered. However, with a 10-bit 4K TV you are even less likely to notice the improvement over ordered dithering. I really do not like "use colored noise" but others do so that is a matter of preference.

If you have to lower other settings ED1 probably isn't worth it, but if you don't then ED1 is never bad in itself.

Quote:
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3) Image downscaling: am I wrong or it's like I'll never use it? I mean I upscale 720p or 1080p to the 4K and I'll never watch anything over 4K....
You are correct, there are two downscaling options now and you will never need to use the one in "image downscaling".

There is the downscaling option for "algorithm to use after doubling:" on the image upscaling page. This would be used after quadrupling 720p to 5120x2880 to downscale to 3840x2160. I suggest leaving it on "let madVR decide".
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Old 10th December 2016, 21:40   #41354  |  Link
ryrynz
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Originally Posted by StinDaWg View Post
I don't see a mod title next to your name. I'll do whatever I like.
You fail to get my point and "witty" remarks do nothing to change it.

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Originally Posted by StinDaWg View Post
I'm not going to waste gpu/electricity on something that might pop up a couple of times a month for a few seconds. You can choose whatever algorithm you like, I'll do the same.
I guess you won't "waste" money on a screen that shows these differences quite clearly either. If you have a low quality screen then I guess it makes sense to use the lower quality algorithms.
Just because you can't see differences in your ancient setup doesn't mean they don't exist.
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Old 10th December 2016, 22:13   #41355  |  Link
fedpul
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Please guys, we need to calm down. The aggressiveness has been increasing in the last few days. We do not know the other economical situation, I think we all have the right to share our opinion and that we can do it without being rude and avoiding offensive comments. We are all trying to do madVR better day after day, we spent hours doing comparisons and helping madshi in every way we could. So I think everyone deserves a chance to say something and doing it in the right way is the way to do it.
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Old 10th December 2016, 23:06   #41356  |  Link
cokeefe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oddball View Post
I'm having a couple of issues with fast forwarding/rewinding on my bluray remuxes. The screen flickers on and off for a while and I get screen corruption until it seems to catch up on itself. No such issues with encodes. The other issue I have is if I put 1080p23 or 1080p24 in my OLED TV's display modes only half the video displays on the TV. I have to leave out those entries for MadVR to play them back correctly in fullscreen exclusive mode on the TV.

Any ideas?

You don't say what GPU you are running, but I've had similar behavior with my RX 480 (loss of signal/sync, corruption). Combined with the poor NGU performance and drivers, I am regretting buying my first non-NVidia card for my dedicated HTPC.

Two things did help in my case:
-force vsync always on in the Crimson driver - it does not seem to honor the "let application decide" flag with MadVR.

-decrease both CPU and GPU queues to the minimum 4

These have reduced but not completely eliminated the flickering (DX11 exclusive).


On another note, @Madshi, I'm one of the silent users who have enjoyed MadVR for several years but never post, as I am not as technical as most folks here. THANK YOU for this remarkable software (especially NGU!)

I also appreciate the move toward simplification and self-configuration - it makes MadVR so much more accessible to the "dull average" crowd I count myself among!

Last edited by cokeefe; 10th December 2016 at 23:09.
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Old 10th December 2016, 23:16   #41357  |  Link
pirlouy
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Originally Posted by Shiandow View Post
All these heuristics like downscaling an image and upscaling it again with different algorithms to see which is closest to the original, are just that, heuristics. They are useful for comparing algorithms, or even designing new ones, but they're no substitute for actually looking yourself.
Comparing screenshot is useful. And there have been a lot of interesting posts these days with useful screenshots comparison.
But asking for an old algorithm to be included without screenshot comparison, I'm not sure it will motivate a dev to accept the request that easily.

As to "personal looking" in the end, I agree with you, but this has to be judged by people who know what to look. Non professional people will not judge the algorithm and are subject to placebo effect. And it is unsure they have done all good settings in the complicated chain of elements to do right !
Again, screenshots avoid endless discussion with nothing.

@others: good job at doing screenshots comparison ! (and also for not embedding big images and using links instead !)
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Old 11th December 2016, 00:50   #41358  |  Link
HillieSan
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Originally Posted by cokeefe View Post
You don't say what GPU you are running, but I've had similar behavior with my RX 480 (loss of signal/sync, corruption). Combined with the poor NGU performance and drivers, I am regretting buying my first non-NVidia card for my dedicated HTPC.

Two things did help in my case:
-force vsync always on in the Crimson driver - it does not seem to honor the "let application decide" flag with MadVR.

-decrease both CPU and GPU queues to the minimum 4

These have reduced but not completely eliminated the flickering (DX11 exclusive).


On another note, @Madshi, I'm one of the silent users who have enjoyed MadVR for several years but never post, as I am not as technical as most folks here. THANK YOU for this remarkable software (especially NGU!)

I also appreciate the move toward simplification and self-configuration - it makes MadVR so much more accessible to the "dull average" crowd I count myself among!
I never experienced these issues with my RX 480. In the beginning I had issues with DX9 and fixed them by switching to DX11. DX11 works flawless with latest versions of mpc-be and bluesky frc (flicker free filter). Only the perfomance of NGU medium and up is poor. Yesterday I installed the latest relive drivers and they have a bug at boot time showing snow for a few seconds and lost of audio via hdmi. Otherwise these work fine. I have reported the bug and I guess this will be fixed soon. Be sure you use good quality hdmi cables. In the past I had sync issues or half screens with my nvidia gtx 660 and amd hd 8570 due to drop out (= poor quality) hdmi-to-dvi cables with 1080/75 hz..
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Old 11th December 2016, 03:01   #41359  |  Link
Patrik G
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Madshi should get the nobel prize for NGU !

watching blu ray movies on my 3D LUT calibrated KRP-500M now with NGU almost makes them look like 4K resolution!
and then im not using luma doubling only chroma upscaling

its amazing how clean and sharp the picture is now and with NO sideeffects or any sign of artificial created image.
damn amazing!

i just wonder how the hell did he do it and why the picture quality is so much higher than with NNEDI3 ?

btw NGU for luma doubling doesnt work here
to much moire effects
almost like bumping up sharpness +20
but since NGU at high for chroma is so sharp already you dont need it

Scene from i still know what you did last summer blu ray with NGU high
Pioneer KRP-500M
btw the photo has 22 stops of dynamic range so everything from black to white is captured
you should be able to spot the frame of the tv if your blacklevel is setup right

Last edited by Patrik G; 11th December 2016 at 03:46.
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Old 11th December 2016, 03:23   #41360  |  Link
har3inger
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try to compare bilateral and super XBR 150.

most obviously the red triangles but not limited to them.

i don't think it is possible to hide the differences with a sub sampling screen. maybe vivid mode or something like that can hide this but...

i'm pretty sure firefox can't hide this what so ever.

this is not a chroma heavy image but it still shows a huge difference with bilateral.
Yeah. Bilateral absolutely shits the bed when there isn't any high contrast information in the luma channel to draw from. It uses this weird, fuzzy, dithered, edge blurring algorithm in these cases which causes the problem with the red triangles. I wouldn't use bilateral unless with chroma SR2 or higher, but bilateral with SR2 does become really quite nice.

How does that same image look with recon soft?
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