Redfox (AnyDVD et all) appears to be gone

[coopervid]

Originally Posted by George++

Waiting 5 days to make a comment has rather blunted what I have to say, but what the hey.

Back in 2016 when SlySoft was deliberately destroyed by order of the US government the SS fora were still active, though not fully functional. That allowed us users to get info about what happened. And tell the devs we supported them.

That brought about the resurrection under the auspices of Red Fox - The Project after a delay. I remember RF was going to be immune from what happened to SS because there was no centralized point of contact with RF.

Well, the complete disappearance of the RF website and fora shows otherwise. Hopefully the deletion of the internet routing records also shows the user database went into oblivion as well. The "Power That Be" would dearly love to retrieve those records and prosecute any US member.

Don't worry George. You were just a forum member and even I was kept from any insights. I just tried to help forum members but was never a member of the "inner circle".

[MrPenguin]

Originally Posted by George++

Even if someone knows how to do the work the process works better if done by software. Manual can lead to incorrect results being entered into the DB.

That is where "findvuk validateDisc" comes in handy: it compares the disk's KEYDB entry with the contents of the physical disk, and then uploads validated information.

[coopervid]

Originally Posted by MrPenguin

That is where "findvuk validateDisc" comes in handy: it compares the disk's KEYDB entry with the contents of the physical disk, and then uploads validated information.

This is no help for the general user who just wants to have his disc decrypted. Sam already answered accordingly.

[MrPenguin]

Originally Posted by SamuriHL

You misunderstand what we're talking about here. *WE* aren't doing anything. This is all done in the background by code in AnyDVD (and maybe Xreveal if that option is added).

But now AnyDVD is no more, and Xreveal doesn't have any equivalent functionality. So your only current options are:

1. Hope that Xreveal does what you ask at some unspecified future time, or
2. Do something similar yourselves along the lines I've described.

And Xreveal only runs on Windows anyway. As a Linux user, I therefore automatically discount it as any kind of solution. ("Hi!", Mac users... )

Also, by the sounds of it, AnyDVD used to upload its results into its own database rather than the KEYDB database. It would be a shame if all the information in that private database has now been lost, but can only hope that it was added to the KEYDB database as well.

Originally Posted by SamuriHL

When the option was designed for AnyDVD it was explained to me that it takes mere seconds to try ALL the unit keys. Besides, what most people fail to understand is that there have been several instances where blu-ray unit keys were shared with UHD's. TRY THEM ALL.

Sure, for a programmatic solution. But I was describing something that anyone who is so inclined could reasonably do "by hand" - and do right now.

Originally Posted by SamuriHL

Again, we're not talking about people manually doing all this work.

But I'm sure at least some people would find it educational while they're waiting for a "deus ex machina" to arrive.

Originally Posted by SamuriHL

Plus the MK has to be in the KeyDB for this to work, and while that's true of some titles, it's not true for all, even when the unit keys are shared.

A manual KEYDB entry containing just DiscID, Title, Date, VID and Unit Key(s) would be perfectly fine. "findvuk validateDisc" would happily upload just that much. Adding a Media Key (if available) and VUK too would just be a "nice to have".

Originally Posted by SamuriHL

And most users are not going to because they don't really know how.

"Not knowing how" is something that can be fixed. The real barrier here is refusing to learn.

[SamuriHL]

Originally Posted by George++

Even if someone knows how to do the work the process works better if done by software. Manual can lead to incorrect results being entered into the DB.

As mentioned it can be validated but why the hell would a user want to go through all the trouble when software can just try all the unit keys and validate a portion of an m2ts and validate the decrypted hash is correct in the blink of an eye, right?

Originally Posted by coopervid

100% agree and you explained it much better that I would have could. I was just waiting and stayed mum. Thanks!

We'll get there.

Originally Posted by MrPenguin

That is where "findvuk validateDisc" comes in handy: it compares the disk's KEYDB entry with the contents of the physical disk, and then uploads validated information.

Sure it can do that. But that still requires more knowledge than the user may possess. It's much easier if, e.g. Xreveal can just scan all the unit keys in the keydb, try them, and validate a partial m2ts on the fly.

Originally Posted by coopervid

This is no help for the general user who just wants to have his disc decrypted. Sam already answered accordingly.

Right...which is what most people are after. I am, however, sympathetic to the cause of maintaining the keydb, so MrPenguin's point is NOT lost on me at all. It's just that the majority of users have no knowledge or desire to go down this path.

Originally Posted by MrPenguin

But now AnyDVD is no more, and Xreveal doesn't have any equivalent functionality. So your only current options are:

1. Hope that Xreveal does what you ask at some unspecified future time, or
2. Do something similar yourselves along the lines I've described.

And Xreveal only runs on Windows anyway. As a Linux user, I therefore automatically discount it as any kind of solution. ("Hi!", Mac users... )

I did mention I asked for this feature for Xreveal. I've already coded my own solution back when the AnyDVD Scanner was alive but it became unnecessary when AnyDVD implemented their own version of it. The scanner wasn't ever designed to handle protections. It was a tool to scan discs that were unsupported by AnyDVD so the Redfox people could try and add keys for it. And to allow other users with the same disc to know they were in the same boat.

As for the Windows thing, that must have meant you discounted AnyDVD, as well, so this entire discussion is already moot from that perspective. I sympathize but we're trying to replace AnyDVD functionality here.

Originally Posted by MrPenguin

Also, by the sounds of it, AnyDVD used to upload its results into its own database rather than the KEYDB database. It would be a shame if all the information in that private database has now been lost.

Not exactly. AnyDVD used the KeyDB for most of its UHD support. When it validated a unit key, it uploaded it to its OPD as a sort of caching mechanism for other AnyDVD users that didn't have the KeyDB installed/configured properly. But the data that was uploaded was from the KeyDB. So nothing's really lost from that perspective.

Originally Posted by MrPenguin

Sure, for a programmatic solution. But I was describing something that anyone who is so inclined could reasonably do "by hand" - and do right now.

Sure, and most of "anyone who is so inclined" with that desire and knowledge already do, right?

Originally Posted by MrPenguin

But I'm sure at least some people would find it educational while they're waiting for a "deus ex machina" to arrive.

No argument there. I'm all for teaching people. But you'd have to make the tutorial on how to do it fairly straightforward and easy to follow in order to get as many people as possible to follow it. This is why automation tends to be better.

Originally Posted by MrPenguin

A manual KEYDB entry containing just DiscID, Title, Date, VID and Unit Key(s) would be perfectly fine. "findvuk validateDisc" would happily upload just that much. Adding a Media Key (if available) and VUK too would just be a "nice to have".

I would argue that adding the metadata like creation date, title info from the metadata.xml, etc to make it as complete as possible should also be done. Nice to have? Yes, but, we're advocating for being good stewards of the keydb aren't we? VUK and MK are less likely by most end users but the other stuff could be done.

Originally Posted by MrPenguin

"Not knowing how" is something that can be fixed. The real barrier here is refusing to learn.

Again, don't disagree at all. I'm an advocate of people being able to backup their legally purchased media that costs 3 arms, an eye, and 5 legs these days. Stuff ain't getting any cheaper, and the quality of the discs (the physical quality I mean) has been steadily degrading over time.

[MrPenguin]

Originally Posted by SamuriHL

As for the Windows thing, that must have meant you discounted AnyDVD, as well, so this entire discussion is already moot from that perspective. I sympathize but we're trying to replace AnyDVD functionality here.

So you're saying your replacement must be Windows-specific, just because AnyDVD was also Windows-specific? That doesn't make any sense. Personally. I consider "Windows-specific" to be a bug rather than a feature.

Originally Posted by SamuriHL

But the data that was uploaded was from the KeyDB. So nothing's really lost from that perspective.

But was anything new ever uploaded to KEYDB? A disk which is missing from KEYDB but which is discovered to use the same Unit Keys as an existing KEYDB entry sounds like it deserves a new KEYDB entry of its own.

Originally Posted by SamuriHL

Sure, and most of "anyone who is so inclined" with that desire and knowledge already do, right?

No idea. But I'm fairly sure that some people are likely looking for new solutions right now.

Originally Posted by SamuriHL

I would argue that adding the metadata like creation date, title info from the metadata.xml, etc to make it as complete as possible should also be done. Nice to have? Yes, but, we're advocating for being good stewards of the keydb aren't we?

I recommend trying FindVUK's new "validateDisc" mode, as it creates and uploads a new XML meta-entry rather than a "legacy entry". And yes, this does include the information you describe.

[SamuriHL]

Originally Posted by MrPenguin

So you're saying your replacement must be Windows-specific, just because AnyDVD was also Windows-specific? That doesn't make any sense. Personally. I consider "Windows-specific" to be a bug rather than a feature.

Nowhere did I say that it MUST be windows only. What I did say is that because I already used AnyDVD, the replacement CAN be windows only in my case. Note the difference here.

Originally Posted by MrPenguin

But was anything new ever uploaded to KEYDB? A disk which is missing from KEYDB but which is discovered to use the same Unit Keys as an existing KEYDB entry sounds like it deserves a new KEYDB entry of its own.

Not by Redfox, no. They had a strict policy against doing so. I asked. Many times. They said no. Clearly I agree it should be.

Originally Posted by MrPenguin

No idea. But I'm fairly sure that some people are likely looking for new solutions right now.

Which is why I want to improve the products out there that can be if the author is open to it. That does not preclude other options from being created/documented. IOW, just because if Xreveal adds functionality to try all the unit keys in the keydb with a particular unsupported disc, it doesn't mean other solutions aren't ALSO welcome, especially if they are cross platform.

Originally Posted by MrPenguin

I recommend trying FindVUK's new "validateDisc" mode, as it creates and uploads a new XML meta-entry rather than a "legacy entry". And yes, this does include the information you describe.

I have used it. Several times now. It's very handy. It doesn't entirely fit my particular use case, unfortunately. It's, admittedly, a very specific use case.

[MrPenguin]

Originally Posted by SamuriHL

Nowhere did I say that it MUST be windows only. What I did say is that because I already used AnyDVD, the replacement CAN be windows only in my case. Note the difference here.

It's not a helpful difference for MacOS and Linux users. I was almost pulling my hair out in frustration trying to upload new entries into the KEYDB database, back when I started playing with BluRays. Fortunately, I have since discovered that FindVUK works in wineconsole.

Originally Posted by SamuriHL

Not by Redfox, no. They had a strict policy against doing so. I asked. Many times. They said no. Clearly I agree it should be.

Sounds like there might be a legal subtlety involved. Did you suggest they write a line describing the current disk in libaacs format to Standard Ouput, which the user would need to append to their KEYDB.cfg file themselves? And then execute "findvuk validateDisc" as a separate step?

My understanding of Xreveal is that it advertises itself as a pure implementation of AACS. I suspect they've decided only to read libaacs format and not to write it - for legal reasons. However, since Xreveal is Windows-only their decisions will not affect me either way.

[SamuriHL]

Originally Posted by MrPenguin

It's not a helpful difference for MacOS and Linux users. I was almost pulling my hair out in frustration trying to upload new entries into the KEYDB database, back when I started playing with BluRays. Fortunately, I have since discovered that FindVUK works in wineconsole.

Then you need to take that up with the respective tool authors. What do you think I'm going to be able to do about it as an end user just looking for a tool to replace AnyDVD??? DVDFab works perfectly fine on Mac. As does MakeMKV (and linux). But those won't help you with KEYDB functions. The only way to upload to the KEYDB is through FindVUK.

Originally Posted by MrPenguin

Sounds like there might be a legal subtlety involved. Did you suggest they write a line describing the current disk in libaacs format to Standard Ouput, which the user would need to append to their KEYDB.cfg file themselves? And then execute "findvuk validateDisc" as a separate step?

They didn't use libaacs for anything. So that wouldn't have been an option, either. They just didn't want to deal with pushing keys to the KEYDB. Not that it matters now....they're gone.

Originally Posted by MrPenguin

My understanding of Xreveal is that it advertises itself as a pure implementation of AACS. I suspect they've decided only to read libaacs format and not to write it - for legal reasons. However, since Xreveal is Windows-only their decisions will not affect me either way.

Writing to the KEYDB requires FindVUK. There's no other way to submit a key. So it's likely more than "legal reasons" but you'd have to ask the author.

[Kju]

Originally Posted by SamuriHL

P.S. A note about AnyDVD's (future) usefulness as a BD tool. I'm sure right now it'll decrypt everything you throw at it. But there's two problems, both related to whenever a new MKB comes out. Currently as of this writing, v81. It's highly probable the next MKB revokes the host cert that AnyDVD is using for BD's. There are ways around that problem, although AnyDVD changed internally their blu-ray support in recent versions which is a shame. Once they revoke the host cert that AnyDVD is using and your drive's MKB is updated, well....being able to decrypt everything suddenly becomes more of an issue unless you work around that problem. The second is the device/processing key AnyDVD is using is also likely to get revoked. That will prevent AnyDVD from decrypting any future titles even if you work around the host cert revocation problem. Basically, AnyDVD has a shelf life.

I already had my first undecryptable BD. It's the german release of Suzume and uses MKB v81. Decryption with Xreveal works just fine.

Originally Posted by coopervid

I'm missing a message that XReveal is done. Right now it just closes and you must hope that it worked.

There was no such a message on AnyDVD either (for removed BDj protections). But I agree, it would be useful to know, if there is any kind of BD-J protection and if it has been removed. Until a few days ago, I didn't even know BD-J protections exist, except for Screen Pass Playlist Obfuscation, which doesn't matter in case of iso backups. So BD-J protections must always be removed, even if I want to play iso backups in VLC or OPPO Blu-ray Player/Clones, right?

I have done some tests with Xreveal. I noticed that the decrypted m2ts files are different from those created by AnyDVD. But the Xreveal m2ts files are the same as those created by MakeMKV backups. So it seams AnyDVD changes some bits. Does anyone know why?

A big downside of Xreveal for me: It doesn't check the checksums when creating a decrypted iso. So you have to backup a protected iso, check the iso, mount the iso and create the decrypted iso. At least creating the decrypted iso is much faster than with AnyDVD thanks to hardware acceleration.

[walstib]

Not sure if it was mentioned in this thread (searched, did not find), but is DeUHD still around/functioning? IIRC, they were the first to enable UHD backups, before MakeMKV and others. The last major release had added support to work around AACS2.1 which few discs used... In any case if it is still functional, that's another backup option for UHD

[SamuriHL]

Last updates on their website are from 2020. I believe they licensed their technology to DVDFab. Whether it'll still work or not, I have no idea. I never used it.

[DrinkLyeAndDie]

Originally Posted by walstib

Not sure if it was mentioned in this thread (searched, did not find), but is DeUHD still around/functioning? IIRC, they were the first to enable UHD backups, before MakeMKV and others. The last major release had added support to work around AACS2.1 which few discs used... In any case if it is still functional, that's another backup option for UHD

Originally Posted by SamuriHL

Last updates on their website are from 2020. I believe they licensed their technology to DVDFab. Whether it'll still work or not, I have no idea. I never used it.

AFAIK it still is fully functioning although I haven't tried any brand new releases with it. It's another program that is internet connected so I don't know if anything has changed enough for it to actually require an update to the installed software.

[Jamie]

Any chance xreveal will block cinavia in the future? I haven't seen cinavia on new discs in a while but I have a number of old discs that contain cinavia

[kurkosdr]

Originally Posted by Jamie

Any chance xreveal will block cinavia in the future? I haven't seen cinavia on new discs in a while but I have a number of old discs that contain cinavia

Cinavia can't be "blocked", it's a form of distortion (or more accurately, distortion carrying modulated data) that is added to the signal at the analog level. Read up on steganography for more details. Also, Cinavia relies on reverb distortion to encode its data, which is very hard to filter without thrashing the audio.

The only way to remove Cinavia cleanly is to replace the audio track with a clean version of the audio track acquired from somewhere else (DVD-Video, IPTV, broadcast TV) which is what DVDFab can do for some Blu-ray titles and some languages (audio tracks). AnyDVD HD also removes Cinavia, but it filters the original signal and hence trashes the audio (RedFox themselves admitted that music present in Cinavia-infested audio tracks would sound weird after performing Cinavia removal using their software). Of course, if you want to remove Cinavia from an Blu-ray-audio track combination not supported by DVDFab, AnyDVD HD is a solution even if it trashes the audio.

But to answer your question, no Xreveal doesn't do Cinavia removal in any way, and since you can't buy AnyDVD HD anymore, you are out of luck if the Blu-ray-audio track combo you want is unsupported by DVDFab, maybe people here know of other Cinavia removal tools. In the past I've heard of a tool called CinEx HD, but don't know if you can still buy a copy (and where from) and how well it works, other people here may know.

[SamuriHL]

Or, you know, they could be referring to the feature in AnyDVD that prevents PowerDVD from detecting Cinavia instead of removing Cinavia, which AnyDVD by itself doesn't do. That only works in combination with CloneBD. The PowerDVD "block" works by modifying the running PowerDVD process I believe. But it's unclear what they're asking for.

[datman]

Sorry about posting off topic. I just wanted to put a pin in it. I have found Xreveal to be the answer for my needs now that anydvd and redfox are gone.

Initially I didn't have Xreveal set up properly I neglected to import the keys afterward it works perfectly the few times I've used.

[Jamie]

Originally Posted by SamuriHL

Or, you know, they could be referring to the feature in AnyDVD that prevents PowerDVD from detecting Cinavia instead of removing Cinavia, which AnyDVD by itself doesn't do. That only works in combination with CloneBD. The PowerDVD "block" works by modifying the running PowerDVD process I believe. But it's unclear what they're asking for.

Anydvd could block the cinavia signal on the fly in powerdvd decrypted disc without using clonebd . no degradation of audio. i believe that vlc, jriver, ad mpc-be may be able to ignore cinavia so it may not be much of a loss in xreveal

[SamuriHL]

Originally Posted by Jamie

Anydvd could block the cinavia signal on the fly without using clonebd in powerdvd for a decrypted disc. no degradation of audio. i believe that vlc, jriver, ad mpc-be may be able to ignore cinavia so it may not be much of a loss in xreveal

All correct. The PowerDVD feature is what I was referring to. I believe it patched PowerDVD in memory when AnyDVD was running and that feature was enabled. Better to use a non-cinavia compliant player IMO. Then it just ignores it.

[kurkosdr]

Originally Posted by Jamie

Anydvd could block the cinavia signal on the fly in powerdvd decrypted disc without using clonebd . no degradation of audio. i believe that vlc, jriver, ad mpc-be may be able to ignore cinavia so it may not be much of a loss in xreveal

Yeah, I didn't even know that feature even existed because I never use PowerDVD to watch titles that are infected with Cinavia. For Cinavia-infected titles, I just use PowerDVD to look around the menus and the extras, and then the main movie can be watched on any player that can play M2TS and the relevant codecs.

Cinavia is an issue mainly on standalone players.